3 ms·

You do realize that underwater drones exist and have been successfully used against Russian ships, right?

jandrewrogers 6mo ago
In the navy they call long-range underwater drones a "torpedo". It has been assumed to be a primary threat against ships for a century. Modern navies have many systems purpose-built to deal with that threat.
- dinfinity 6mo ago
  That's like equating a cruise missile with an aerial drone (which is nonsensical). Now I'm not saying defense against UUVs is impossible, but plenty of defenses against torpedoes don't work against them. Note also that part of the approach of drone warfare is sheer quantity. Stopping 1 may be trivial, stopping 5 may be doable, but stopping 20 simultaneous ones might already be too hard to do consistently and repeatedly.
  - wredcoll 6mo ago
    And what platform do you imagine is launching these dozens of torp-- drones? This is the thing everyone fails to understand about carrier warfare: anything you can use to attack the carrier can be outranged by the carrier because it can just employ the same weapons but from airplanes that fly closer to you.
    - dinfinity 6mo ago
      Bigger UUVs, also called LUUV and XLUUVs.
  - jandrewrogers 6mo ago
    A drone of this type and a cruise missile are literally the same type of thing, they just occupy different points on the capability spectrum. You assert "plenty of defenses against torpedoes don't work against [UUV]". Based on what? What is this hypothetical property of a UUV that is superior to a torpedo? A UUV with sufficient range and warhead is going to be big and heavy. Long-range torpedos weigh 2 tons each for a good reason. Calling something a "drone" or "UUV" does not imbue it with magic physics. It still has to cross some long span of water with enough speed and a large enough warhead and a guidance package capable of finding the target. What kind of vessel are you going to use to bring these UUV within range of the target? 20 torpedos would be almost the entire magazine depth of an attack submarine. Surface combat ships carry even fewer. You seem to be ignoring all evidence from how modern naval systems actually work when discussing your hypothetical UUVs.
    - dinfinity 6mo ago
      > A drone of this type and a cruise missile are literally the same type of thing, they just occupy different points on the capability spectrum. You have a "this type" in your mind. I do not. Even then you're wrong. A drone can loiter and is thus not "literally the same type of thing" as a cruise missile or torpedo. > What is this hypothetical property of a UUV that is superior to a torpedo? [...] It still has to cross some long span of water with enough speed and a large enough warhead and a guidance package capable of finding the target. The huge advantage of drones (besides relatively low cost) is not how they cover the distance, but their flexibility in getting to the target, striking with high precision. An underwater drone can technically even circle the target before striking it at its weakest point (although this isn't going to work well if the target is at full speed). > What kind of vessel are you going to use to bring these UUV within range of the target? Bigger UUVs. Note that 'within range of the target' is also much higher for UUVs versus torpedoes, easily 160km for UUVs. Note that ambushes with these UUVs may also be an option, if they can loiter or just lie on the sea floor.
      - jandrewrogers 6mo ago
        Are you oblivious to the fact that cruise missiles can loiter? You are making a distinction without a difference. All of this reads like you are not familiar with modern military capabilities. Longer ranger UUVs is equivalent to "even bigger torpedoes". Do you not understand the subject matter? There is a lot of evidence in this post that you do not. You are making up magical scenarios where your UUVs have properties that can't be replicated by any other real system that is literally supposed to execute the same mission.
        dinfinity 6mo ago
        > Are you oblivious to the fact that cruise missiles can loiter? At which point we more commonly call them drones or loitering munition. Even using a broad definition, 95% of what technically could fall under cruise missiles is of the traditional non-loitering kind. Same goes for torpedoes. > Longer ranger UUVs is equivalent to "even bigger torpedoes". The term UUV covers an enormously diverse set of devices, from fullblown autonomous nuclear subs to tiny industrial inspection drones. Narrow-mindedly handwaving new technology into bins you're already familiar with and approaching them as such is exactly the type of cognitive failure that lies at the basis of the phrase "generals are always fighting the last war". Since you are being willfully ignorant, haven't properly addressed the answers I gave you and are throwing out ad hominems I will not spend any more time on you.
- carefree-bob 6mo ago
  Plus these things have a range of about 50 miles. It's not like if you are a carrier floating in the pacific, you will be swarmed with a thousand torpedoes. To launch one requires a submarine, and while one may hide, it's not so easy to penetrate the defenses of a carrier group in the middle of the pacific. Ukraine has had success against mostly unarmored and a few lightly armored Russian ships (and let's face it, these are small ships compared to carriers) in the black sea because the front lines are there and they can launch from a port, travel 5 miles, and hit one of these ships. That's a completely different situation.
  - defrost 6mo ago
    > To launch one requires a submarine Torpedoes cannot be launched from manned / unmanned surface vessels? Wow. Good job China isn't getting into water surface drone swarms. Still, easy to see why close waters near Iran keep the US carrier groups away.
    - wredcoll 6mo ago
      > Torpedoes cannot be launched from manned / unmanned surface vessels? They're getting close enough to target the carriers without being sunk.. how exactly?
      - defrost 6mo ago
        Relatively low cost, numbers and sheer persistance. Post WWII US has always struggled with asymmetric wars that can't be solved with military dominance and rarely addressed on deeper issues. This current Iran conflict is reminiscent of the Taliban in Afghanistan, who survived 20 years in a frozen conflict with the US before taking back control of the country when the US withdrew. The betting is strong on Iran still standing when Trump gets bored and carried off stage.
        wredcoll 6mo ago
        > Post WWII US has always struggled with asymmetric wars that can't be solved with military dominance and rarely addressed on deeper issues. I mean, yeah, we're talking about the part of the war that is unrelated to the weapon systems involved.

In the navy they call long-range underwater drones a "torpedo". It has been assumed to be a primary threat against ships for a century. Modern navies have many systems purpose-built to deal with that threat.

dinfinity 6mo ago
That's like equating a cruise missile with an aerial drone (which is nonsensical). Now I'm not saying defense against UUVs is impossible, but plenty of defenses against torpedoes don't work against them. Note also that part of the approach of drone warfare is sheer quantity. Stopping 1 may be trivial, stopping 5 may be doable, but stopping 20 simultaneous ones might already be too hard to do consistently and repeatedly.
- wredcoll 6mo ago
  And what platform do you imagine is launching these dozens of torp-- drones? This is the thing everyone fails to understand about carrier warfare: anything you can use to attack the carrier can be outranged by the carrier because it can just employ the same weapons but from airplanes that fly closer to you.
  - dinfinity 6mo ago
    Bigger UUVs, also called LUUV and XLUUVs.
- jandrewrogers 6mo ago
  A drone of this type and a cruise missile are literally the same type of thing, they just occupy different points on the capability spectrum. You assert "plenty of defenses against torpedoes don't work against [UUV]". Based on what? What is this hypothetical property of a UUV that is superior to a torpedo? A UUV with sufficient range and warhead is going to be big and heavy. Long-range torpedos weigh 2 tons each for a good reason. Calling something a "drone" or "UUV" does not imbue it with magic physics. It still has to cross some long span of water with enough speed and a large enough warhead and a guidance package capable of finding the target. What kind of vessel are you going to use to bring these UUV within range of the target? 20 torpedos would be almost the entire magazine depth of an attack submarine. Surface combat ships carry even fewer. You seem to be ignoring all evidence from how modern naval systems actually work when discussing your hypothetical UUVs.
  - dinfinity 6mo ago
    > A drone of this type and a cruise missile are literally the same type of thing, they just occupy different points on the capability spectrum. You have a "this type" in your mind. I do not. Even then you're wrong. A drone can loiter and is thus not "literally the same type of thing" as a cruise missile or torpedo. > What is this hypothetical property of a UUV that is superior to a torpedo? [...] It still has to cross some long span of water with enough speed and a large enough warhead and a guidance package capable of finding the target. The huge advantage of drones (besides relatively low cost) is not how they cover the distance, but their flexibility in getting to the target, striking with high precision. An underwater drone can technically even circle the target before striking it at its weakest point (although this isn't going to work well if the target is at full speed). > What kind of vessel are you going to use to bring these UUV within range of the target? Bigger UUVs. Note that 'within range of the target' is also much higher for UUVs versus torpedoes, easily 160km for UUVs. Note that ambushes with these UUVs may also be an option, if they can loiter or just lie on the sea floor.
    - jandrewrogers 6mo ago
      Are you oblivious to the fact that cruise missiles can loiter? You are making a distinction without a difference. All of this reads like you are not familiar with modern military capabilities. Longer ranger UUVs is equivalent to "even bigger torpedoes". Do you not understand the subject matter? There is a lot of evidence in this post that you do not. You are making up magical scenarios where your UUVs have properties that can't be replicated by any other real system that is literally supposed to execute the same mission.
      - dinfinity 6mo ago
        > Are you oblivious to the fact that cruise missiles can loiter? At which point we more commonly call them drones or loitering munition. Even using a broad definition, 95% of what technically could fall under cruise missiles is of the traditional non-loitering kind. Same goes for torpedoes. > Longer ranger UUVs is equivalent to "even bigger torpedoes". The term UUV covers an enormously diverse set of devices, from fullblown autonomous nuclear subs to tiny industrial inspection drones. Narrow-mindedly handwaving new technology into bins you're already familiar with and approaching them as such is exactly the type of cognitive failure that lies at the basis of the phrase "generals are always fighting the last war". Since you are being willfully ignorant, haven't properly addressed the answers I gave you and are throwing out ad hominems I will not spend any more time on you.
carefree-bob 6mo ago
Plus these things have a range of about 50 miles. It's not like if you are a carrier floating in the pacific, you will be swarmed with a thousand torpedoes. To launch one requires a submarine, and while one may hide, it's not so easy to penetrate the defenses of a carrier group in the middle of the pacific. Ukraine has had success against mostly unarmored and a few lightly armored Russian ships (and let's face it, these are small ships compared to carriers) in the black sea because the front lines are there and they can launch from a port, travel 5 miles, and hit one of these ships. That's a completely different situation.
- defrost 6mo ago
  > To launch one requires a submarine Torpedoes cannot be launched from manned / unmanned surface vessels? Wow. Good job China isn't getting into water surface drone swarms. Still, easy to see why close waters near Iran keep the US carrier groups away.
  - wredcoll 6mo ago
    > Torpedoes cannot be launched from manned / unmanned surface vessels? They're getting close enough to target the carriers without being sunk.. how exactly?
    - defrost 6mo ago
      Relatively low cost, numbers and sheer persistance. Post WWII US has always struggled with asymmetric wars that can't be solved with military dominance and rarely addressed on deeper issues. This current Iran conflict is reminiscent of the Taliban in Afghanistan, who survived 20 years in a frozen conflict with the US before taking back control of the country when the US withdrew. The betting is strong on Iran still standing when Trump gets bored and carried off stage.
      - wredcoll 6mo ago
        > Post WWII US has always struggled with asymmetric wars that can't be solved with military dominance and rarely addressed on deeper issues. I mean, yeah, we're talking about the part of the war that is unrelated to the weapon systems involved.