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Do you think fuel efficiency or emission standards "slowed down innovation"? They brought a huge amount of innovation: lighter materials, better aerodynamics, h

Do you think fuel efficiency or emission standards "slowed down innovation"? They brought a huge amount of innovation: lighter materials, better aerodynamics, higher compression ratios, direct injection, better mixture control, etc. There will still be innovation; the solutions will just have satisfy the new parameters.

eru 6mo ago
Yes, they definitely slowed down innovation and decreased consumer surplus compared to the counterfactual of just taxing the behaviour you don't like (like taxing fuel or emissions).
- thrownthatway 6mo ago
  They tax the fuel as well, don’t you worry.
  - eru 6mo ago
    Sure, but they could have taxed it more and not have any official fuel efficiency standards. (And compared to most of Europe or Singapore, US fuel is taxed very lightly, and their CAFE standards are especially stupid. Especially since their loopholes led to the replacement of practical station wagons with silly and dangerous SUVs. With a more car-agnostic fuel tax, this wouldn't have happened.)
    - close04 6mo ago
      You stumbled onto the pain point. The problem isn’t the intention but the execution. The EU historically has done a better job at nailing the execution of this type of regulation. If it slows down innovation is debatable but even so there’s still a solid principle behind it, a small speed reduction can grant a huge efficiency gain. It’s usually a worthwhile compromise. You don’t run tour engine only in the red zone because that’s where it makes the most power.
      - eru 6mo ago
        > [...] a small speed reduction can grant a huge efficiency gain. And customers directly benefit from the efficiency gain by burning through less fuel. So no need to decide for them.
        watwut 6mo ago
        The externalities affect everyone, including people who dont own cars.
        eru 6mo ago
        There's a (finite) level of fuel tax that internalises all the externalities.
        close04 6mo ago
        In that same sentence I mentioned the slowing down of innovation, not cars. The government gets to decide for the people because that’s what a democratic majority wants. If you don’t want it go full anarchist. Just don’t come crying to the government to protect you when you inevitably take it on the chin. For example would you want laws that ban giving people the mother of all beatings in the street? Or just tax it really high? Someone might just have some money burning a hole in their pocket and an intense desire to teach a lesson in regulations. Everyone has some strong opinions about their own freedom until someone else’s freedom punches them in the teeth and then they’re little lambs lining up to ask for regulations.
        eru 6mo ago
        Huh? Just because democracy is better than many alternatives, doesn't mean that your neighbours need to vote on what underwear you are wearing.
        close04 6mo ago
        > doesn't mean that your neighbours need to vote on what underwear you are wearing. You’ll be happy to find out that they in fact don’t. They only vote for representatives which then decide on important topics especially if they have impact on the wider population. Enjoy your freedom to pick your underwear while respecting all the fuel and speed related regulations.
thrownthatway 6mo ago
To a degree. You can’t have infinitely improving standards for an infinite time, otherwise you end up with bullshit like Dieselgate, and ecotechnocrats forcing everyone to drive around in mobile inextinguishable incendiary devices.
- thfuran 6mo ago
  ICE cars catch fire at a far higher rate than BEVs.
  - thrownthatway 6mo ago
    All ICE cars, or only those as old as the BEV fleet? At least ICE car fires can be extinguished, and without special equipment. Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames while you’re sitting in it waiting for it charge? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames after a relatively low speed impact and lock the occupants inside and immediately fill the cabin with fumes from a rapidly degradging lithium ion battery? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames taking down whole RORO car transport vessels at sea? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames in your garage at night and ignite your whole house, while you and your family are sleeping?
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - ssl-3 6mo ago
      > At least ICE car fires can be extinguished, and without special equipment. That's not quite right. It's not like a non-special equipment like bucket of water or a garden hose (and I, for one, always travel with one of each!) work well for extinguishing any working car fire. The remains of ICE car fires I've seen while out and about, while very few, are usually just hulks of vaguely car-shaped metal that have turned rusty from the heat by the time I come across them. Car fires are never good. They're seldom easy to put out. EV fires can be worse in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make the other kinds of car fires saintly or anything. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames while you’re sitting in it waiting for it charge? Nope. Except: One doesn't have to go very far on teh Interweb to find videos of car fires at gas stations, either. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames after a relatively low speed impact Sometimes. > and lock the occupants inside Sometimes people can't get out. > and immediately fill the cabin with fumes from a rapidly degradging lithium ion battery? Nope. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames taking down whole RORO car transport vessels at sea? Not usually. People don't usually die from getting hit on the side of the road while pouring gas from a jerry can into their EV, either. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames in your garage at night Not often, but sometimes. > and ignite your whole house, while you and your family are sleeping? I'm not answering that. I take too much pleasure in ignoring uselessly-specific addendums to questions like this. You'll have to forgive me.
dzhiurgis 6mo ago
And then when EVs become viable they went - naaaah look at those efficient diesels!!

eru 6mo ago

Yes, they definitely slowed down innovation and decreased consumer surplus compared to the counterfactual of just taxing the behaviour you don't like (like taxing fuel or emissions).

thrownthatway 6mo ago
They tax the fuel as well, don’t you worry.
- eru 6mo ago
  Sure, but they could have taxed it more and not have any official fuel efficiency standards. (And compared to most of Europe or Singapore, US fuel is taxed very lightly, and their CAFE standards are especially stupid. Especially since their loopholes led to the replacement of practical station wagons with silly and dangerous SUVs. With a more car-agnostic fuel tax, this wouldn't have happened.)
  - close04 6mo ago
    You stumbled onto the pain point. The problem isn’t the intention but the execution. The EU historically has done a better job at nailing the execution of this type of regulation. If it slows down innovation is debatable but even so there’s still a solid principle behind it, a small speed reduction can grant a huge efficiency gain. It’s usually a worthwhile compromise. You don’t run tour engine only in the red zone because that’s where it makes the most power.
    - eru 6mo ago
      > [...] a small speed reduction can grant a huge efficiency gain. And customers directly benefit from the efficiency gain by burning through less fuel. So no need to decide for them.
      - watwut 6mo ago
        The externalities affect everyone, including people who dont own cars.
        eru 6mo ago
        There's a (finite) level of fuel tax that internalises all the externalities.
      - close04 6mo ago
        In that same sentence I mentioned the slowing down of innovation, not cars. The government gets to decide for the people because that’s what a democratic majority wants. If you don’t want it go full anarchist. Just don’t come crying to the government to protect you when you inevitably take it on the chin. For example would you want laws that ban giving people the mother of all beatings in the street? Or just tax it really high? Someone might just have some money burning a hole in their pocket and an intense desire to teach a lesson in regulations. Everyone has some strong opinions about their own freedom until someone else’s freedom punches them in the teeth and then they’re little lambs lining up to ask for regulations.
        eru 6mo ago
        Huh? Just because democracy is better than many alternatives, doesn't mean that your neighbours need to vote on what underwear you are wearing.
        close04 6mo ago
        > doesn't mean that your neighbours need to vote on what underwear you are wearing. You’ll be happy to find out that they in fact don’t. They only vote for representatives which then decide on important topics especially if they have impact on the wider population. Enjoy your freedom to pick your underwear while respecting all the fuel and speed related regulations.

thrownthatway 6mo ago

To a degree. You can’t have infinitely improving standards for an infinite time, otherwise you end up with bullshit like Dieselgate, and ecotechnocrats forcing everyone to drive around in mobile inextinguishable incendiary devices.

thfuran 6mo ago
ICE cars catch fire at a far higher rate than BEVs.
- thrownthatway 6mo ago
  All ICE cars, or only those as old as the BEV fleet? At least ICE car fires can be extinguished, and without special equipment. Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames while you’re sitting in it waiting for it charge? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames after a relatively low speed impact and lock the occupants inside and immediately fill the cabin with fumes from a rapidly degradging lithium ion battery? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames taking down whole RORO car transport vessels at sea? Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames in your garage at night and ignite your whole house, while you and your family are sleeping?
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - ssl-3 6mo ago
    > At least ICE car fires can be extinguished, and without special equipment. That's not quite right. It's not like a non-special equipment like bucket of water or a garden hose (and I, for one, always travel with one of each!) work well for extinguishing any working car fire. The remains of ICE car fires I've seen while out and about, while very few, are usually just hulks of vaguely car-shaped metal that have turned rusty from the heat by the time I come across them. Car fires are never good. They're seldom easy to put out. EV fires can be worse in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make the other kinds of car fires saintly or anything. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames while you’re sitting in it waiting for it charge? Nope. Except: One doesn't have to go very far on teh Interweb to find videos of car fires at gas stations, either. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames after a relatively low speed impact Sometimes. > and lock the occupants inside Sometimes people can't get out. > and immediately fill the cabin with fumes from a rapidly degradging lithium ion battery? Nope. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames taking down whole RORO car transport vessels at sea? Not usually. People don't usually die from getting hit on the side of the road while pouring gas from a jerry can into their EV, either. > Do ICE cars spontaneously erupt in flames in your garage at night Not often, but sometimes. > and ignite your whole house, while you and your family are sleeping? I'm not answering that. I take too much pleasure in ignoring uselessly-specific addendums to questions like this. You'll have to forgive me.

dzhiurgis 6mo ago

And then when EVs become viable they went - naaaah look at those efficient diesels!!