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>The same people that shout "Capitalism sucks, free us from our labor" are the exact same types that hate AI. The exact machine that will free you from your lab

by viccis 6mo ago

>The same people that shout "Capitalism sucks, free us from our labor" are the exact same types that hate AI. The exact machine that will free you from your labor, when harnessed correctly, is the exact thing you hate. I think you fundamentally misunderstand leftists/Maxists here. They don't want to be "freed from labor". They want to own the value they produce instead of bartering their labor. In fact, Marxists tend to view Yang style UBI as a disaster because their analysis of history is one of class struggle, and removing the masses from the thing that gives them an active role in that struggle (their labor) effectively deproletariatizes them. Can't exactly do a general strike to oppose a business or state's actions when things are already set up to be fine when you're not working. You instead just become a glorified peasant, reliant on the magnanimity of your patron but ultimately powerless to do anything if they make your life worse except hope they don't continue to worsen it. I'm not arguing the Marxist view of history and class struggle here, just making it clear that outside of some reddit teenagers going through an anarchist phase, actual anti-capitalists don't think work will disappear when their worldview materializes.

slibhb 6mo ago
Marx pretty clearly envisions a future society where necessary labor is reduced to a minimum due to technology. The fact that modern leftists are (often) anti-technology is puzzling.
- simianwords 6mo ago
  Modern leftists are the modern conservatives. You can watch it happening - 40 years later you have people with grey hair and beards reminiscing their times when they coded by hand. They will absolutely be the most conservative voting block to exist -- they will continue opposing technology.
  - viccis 6mo ago
    This works well if you equivocate the word "conservative" as "opposing technology". Otherwise, it's just a specious and bad faith attempt at an own.
- xg15 6mo ago
  Maybe read the rest of Marx too, and not just that sentence. The point is not whether or not we have technology but who controls it.
  - simianwords 6mo ago
    As someone who has not read Marx you can clarify - how does it matter who controls the technology? The industrial revolution was not controlled by labour, it still mattered. Marxism fundamentally is: productive forces change the society, meaning the technology that exists at that point in time shapes the way people think.
    - xg15 6mo ago
      From what I read (which is also not much), wikipedia has a good summary, I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production#Marxism_and_Marxist_theory_of_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production#Marxism_an... Yes, technological improvements are an important factor, but not a purely positive one: > In Marx's work and subsequent developments in Marxist theory, the process of socioeconomic evolution is based on the premise of technological improvements in the means of production. As the level of technology improves with respect to productive capabilities, existing forms of social relations become superfluous and unnecessary as the advancement of technology integrated within the means of production contradicts the established organization of society and its economy. In particular: > According to Marx, escalating tension between the upper and lower class is a major consequence of technology decreasing the value of labor force and the contradictory effect an evolving means of production has on established social and economic systems. Marx believed increasing inequality between the upper and lower classes acts as a major catalyst of class conflicts[...] > Ownership of the means of production and control over the surplus product generated by their operation is the fundamental factor in delineating different modes of production. [capitalism, communism, etc]
      - slibhb 6mo ago
        In Marx, escalating tensions between the classes is good.
- viccis 6mo ago
  Key there is future. I don't think he ever claimed such an automated communist utopia was the immediate progression after capitalism. >The fact that modern leftists are (often) anti-technology is puzzling. Not puzzling at all when the world has experience earth shattering advances in technology in the past 30-40 years, and the economic gains it has brought have not been reflected in similar reductions in labor for the workers. Why on earth would AI be any different than the cotton gin or the self checkout?
  - xg15 6mo ago
    Yeah, I'm baffled how hard this seems to be to understand for many tech people: Everyone raves on about the massive increases in productivity we archieved in the last decades thanks to technological progress - meanwhile wages and living conditions of many have become worse in the same period, while some techbros have amassed otherworldly levels of wealth and see themselves as the new masters of the universe. So that's the glorious future that technology is bringing us towards?
simianwords 6mo ago
You yourself have no idea what Marxism is because one of the basic tenets of Marxism is that productive forces shape the society. The people opposing AI want to stop the very thing that can help change society. You can't just will a society to gain consciousness - it has to come from the productive forces. That is materialism.
- viccis 6mo ago
  >one of the basic tenets of Marxism is that productive forces shape the society Correct. So a future where AI does the majority of work means that the proletariat is no longer the historical subject; AI and its ownership class are. In this situation, AI will shape the society, not the workers. Not really a desirable outcome for anyone engaged in mass class politics.

by viccis 6mo ago

slibhb 6mo ago

Marx pretty clearly envisions a future society where necessary labor is reduced to a minimum due to technology. The fact that modern leftists are (often) anti-technology is puzzling.

simianwords 6mo ago
Modern leftists are the modern conservatives. You can watch it happening - 40 years later you have people with grey hair and beards reminiscing their times when they coded by hand. They will absolutely be the most conservative voting block to exist -- they will continue opposing technology.
- viccis 6mo ago
  This works well if you equivocate the word "conservative" as "opposing technology". Otherwise, it's just a specious and bad faith attempt at an own.
xg15 6mo ago
Maybe read the rest of Marx too, and not just that sentence. The point is not whether or not we have technology but who controls it.
- simianwords 6mo ago
  As someone who has not read Marx you can clarify - how does it matter who controls the technology? The industrial revolution was not controlled by labour, it still mattered. Marxism fundamentally is: productive forces change the society, meaning the technology that exists at that point in time shapes the way people think.
  - xg15 6mo ago
    From what I read (which is also not much), wikipedia has a good summary, I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production#Marxism_and_Marxist_theory_of_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production#Marxism_an... Yes, technological improvements are an important factor, but not a purely positive one: > In Marx's work and subsequent developments in Marxist theory, the process of socioeconomic evolution is based on the premise of technological improvements in the means of production. As the level of technology improves with respect to productive capabilities, existing forms of social relations become superfluous and unnecessary as the advancement of technology integrated within the means of production contradicts the established organization of society and its economy. In particular: > According to Marx, escalating tension between the upper and lower class is a major consequence of technology decreasing the value of labor force and the contradictory effect an evolving means of production has on established social and economic systems. Marx believed increasing inequality between the upper and lower classes acts as a major catalyst of class conflicts[...] > Ownership of the means of production and control over the surplus product generated by their operation is the fundamental factor in delineating different modes of production. [capitalism, communism, etc]
    - slibhb 6mo ago
      In Marx, escalating tensions between the classes is good.
viccis 6mo ago
Key there is future. I don't think he ever claimed such an automated communist utopia was the immediate progression after capitalism. >The fact that modern leftists are (often) anti-technology is puzzling. Not puzzling at all when the world has experience earth shattering advances in technology in the past 30-40 years, and the economic gains it has brought have not been reflected in similar reductions in labor for the workers. Why on earth would AI be any different than the cotton gin or the self checkout?
- xg15 6mo ago
  Yeah, I'm baffled how hard this seems to be to understand for many tech people: Everyone raves on about the massive increases in productivity we archieved in the last decades thanks to technological progress - meanwhile wages and living conditions of many have become worse in the same period, while some techbros have amassed otherworldly levels of wealth and see themselves as the new masters of the universe. So that's the glorious future that technology is bringing us towards?

simianwords 6mo ago

You yourself have no idea what Marxism is because one of the basic tenets of Marxism is that productive forces shape the society. The people opposing AI want to stop the very thing that can help change society. You can't just will a society to gain consciousness - it has to come from the productive forces. That is materialism.

viccis 6mo ago
>one of the basic tenets of Marxism is that productive forces shape the society Correct. So a future where AI does the majority of work means that the proletariat is no longer the historical subject; AI and its ownership class are. In this situation, AI will shape the society, not the workers. Not really a desirable outcome for anyone engaged in mass class politics.