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> A simple ICE vs EV comparison ignores electric grid generation efficiency and transmission losses as well as the massive energy cost of manufacturing the batt

> A simple ICE vs EV comparison ignores electric grid generation efficiency and transmission losses as well as the massive energy cost of manufacturing the battery Does it take into account the "massive energy cost" of manufacturing the ICE vehicle then?

ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago
Or the gasoline generation efficiency and transmission losses? Or the economic impacts of oil pollution? Getting oil from the ground to the pump isn't free either.
- triceratops 7mo ago
  100 percent
- leonidasrup 7mo ago
  The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths, used for permanent magnets in EV motors or in electric generators - wind turbines, is quite large. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389425033205 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03043... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_Rare_Earth_Mine#Environmental_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_Rare_Earth_Mine#... Because of ecology, refining of U.S. mined rare earths was outsourced for a very long time to China. Outsourcing of ecological damage... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/mp-materials-stops-china-bound-rare-earth-shipments-over-tariffs-2025-04-17/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/mp-materials-sto...
  - triceratops 7mo ago
    > The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths... is quite large There's obviously no ecological impact of mining and refining fossil fuel. The Deepwater Horizon actually reduced the amount of oil in the ocean. And unlike batteries, which are non-recyclable and always have been. It's common to throw the lead-acid battery from ICE vehicles into the nearest body of water, for example. It's definitely not the case that 99% of them are recycled today. Whereas recycling coal and oil is trivial and done all the time. /s
    - leonidasrup 7mo ago
      BP was fined billions for Deepwater Horizon because it affected US public. Most in US don't know that recycling of lead-acid batteries from ICE vehicles is outsourced to Africa. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/11/18/world/africa/lead-poisoning-car-battery.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/11/18/world/africa/... https://www.sustainable-recycling.org/reports/urgent-strategies-improve-lab-recycling/ https://www.sustainable-recycling.org/reports/urgent-strateg... "Although efforts to enforce regulations in the United States have ramped up and cleanup is underway at some sites, many lead-acid batteries from the United States are exported to the Global South, where companies continue to cause harmful public health disasters, and US automotive companies subsequently purchase the recycled lead." https://blog.ucs.org/jessica-dunn/how-recycling-is-done-matters-lessons-learned-from-the-lead-acid-battery/ https://blog.ucs.org/jessica-dunn/how-recycling-is-done-matt...
      - triceratops 7mo ago
        > BP was fined billions for Deepwater Horizon because it affected US public. Great, all better in that case. And that's the only time oil and gas extraction and shipping ever caused environmental issues. It's totally clean the rest of the time. > Most in US don't know that recycling of lead-acid batteries from ICE vehicles is outsourced to Africa... and US automotive companies subsequently purchase the recycled lead So the batteries can be recycled.
        leonidasrup 7mo ago
        > So the batteries can be recycled. They can be recycled, but much more discussion in public should be done about who pays the ecological price of recycling, mining, refining. For example US automotive companies should be fined for outsourcing recycling of lead-acid batteries to Africa.
  - ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago
    > The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths, used for permanent magnets in EV motors or in electric generators - wind turbines, is quite large. I don't think I ever said otherwise. FWIW I think cars are bad. Full stop. If they have to exist, electric cars appear to have fewer externalities.
    - leonidasrup 7mo ago
      Yes, if cars then electric. But much more importance should be placed on public transport. Air-travel should be in many cases replaced with high speed, electric trains.
      - ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
        No disagreement from me.

ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago

Or the gasoline generation efficiency and transmission losses? Or the economic impacts of oil pollution? Getting oil from the ground to the pump isn't free either.

triceratops 7mo ago
100 percent
leonidasrup 7mo ago
The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths, used for permanent magnets in EV motors or in electric generators - wind turbines, is quite large. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389425033205 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03043... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_Rare_Earth_Mine#Environmental_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_Rare_Earth_Mine#... Because of ecology, refining of U.S. mined rare earths was outsourced for a very long time to China. Outsourcing of ecological damage... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/mp-materials-stops-china-bound-rare-earth-shipments-over-tariffs-2025-04-17/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/mp-materials-sto...
- triceratops 7mo ago
  > The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths... is quite large There's obviously no ecological impact of mining and refining fossil fuel. The Deepwater Horizon actually reduced the amount of oil in the ocean. And unlike batteries, which are non-recyclable and always have been. It's common to throw the lead-acid battery from ICE vehicles into the nearest body of water, for example. It's definitely not the case that 99% of them are recycled today. Whereas recycling coal and oil is trivial and done all the time. /s
  - leonidasrup 7mo ago
    BP was fined billions for Deepwater Horizon because it affected US public. Most in US don't know that recycling of lead-acid batteries from ICE vehicles is outsourced to Africa. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/11/18/world/africa/lead-poisoning-car-battery.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/11/18/world/africa/... https://www.sustainable-recycling.org/reports/urgent-strategies-improve-lab-recycling/ https://www.sustainable-recycling.org/reports/urgent-strateg... "Although efforts to enforce regulations in the United States have ramped up and cleanup is underway at some sites, many lead-acid batteries from the United States are exported to the Global South, where companies continue to cause harmful public health disasters, and US automotive companies subsequently purchase the recycled lead." https://blog.ucs.org/jessica-dunn/how-recycling-is-done-matters-lessons-learned-from-the-lead-acid-battery/ https://blog.ucs.org/jessica-dunn/how-recycling-is-done-matt...
    - triceratops 7mo ago
      > BP was fined billions for Deepwater Horizon because it affected US public. Great, all better in that case. And that's the only time oil and gas extraction and shipping ever caused environmental issues. It's totally clean the rest of the time. > Most in US don't know that recycling of lead-acid batteries from ICE vehicles is outsourced to Africa... and US automotive companies subsequently purchase the recycled lead So the batteries can be recycled.
      - leonidasrup 7mo ago
        > So the batteries can be recycled. They can be recycled, but much more discussion in public should be done about who pays the ecological price of recycling, mining, refining. For example US automotive companies should be fined for outsourcing recycling of lead-acid batteries to Africa.
- ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago
  > The ecological impact of mining and refining of rare earths, used for permanent magnets in EV motors or in electric generators - wind turbines, is quite large. I don't think I ever said otherwise. FWIW I think cars are bad. Full stop. If they have to exist, electric cars appear to have fewer externalities.
  - leonidasrup 7mo ago
    Yes, if cars then electric. But much more importance should be placed on public transport. Air-travel should be in many cases replaced with high speed, electric trains.
    - ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
      No disagreement from me.