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Treat it like a driver assistance system. I treat FSD the same as I treat Augmented Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist in my CRV. I keep my hands on the steeri

by x187463 6mo ago

Treat it like a driver assistance system. I treat FSD the same as I treat Augmented Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist in my CRV. I keep my hands on the steering wheel and follow along with the decision making.

grvdrm 6mo ago
Reminds me of a situation not long ago. I’m in left lane on highway. Tesla ahead of me but quite a ways away. I realize as I’m driving that the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. So - I passed on the right rather than tailgate. Look over and see a guy leaning back in his seat. No hands on wheel. Could’ve been asleep. And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. To your point about using it FSD the way you do, makes total sense to me. Which implies you would also cruise at the right speed depending on the lane you are in, unlike my example.
- x187463 6mo ago
  One of my major complaints about FSD is the 'speed profiles'. You used to be able to set a target speed directly. Now, you can only select a profile. You're either going the exact speed limit, 2-3mph over, or essentially 'with the flow of traffic' which can lead to speeding +15 over the limit.
  - grvdrm 6mo ago
    Didn't know about that feature. Thanks for the illumination. On verge of going full electric and looking at BMW, Lucid, Porsche, Rivian, Tesla. I wonder what's taught to new drivers about this sort of situation. My intuitive feeling (driving for almost 30 years) is you drive with the flow of traffic when traffic is present. I don't see too many left lane drivers glued to speed limits, but it's obvious when someone is a fast or slow.
    - x187463 6mo ago
      It's worth noting that older Tesla's pre-2024, are stuck on an old version of FSD due to compute limitations. Recent FSD, generally, does not hang out in the left lane and is very good at recognizing when vehicles approach from the rear. It will move to the right lane to allow them to pass.
      - grvdrm 6mo ago
        Excellent -- noted.
- Mawr 6mo ago
  > the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. Is that code for "the Tesla was following the law by driving within the speed limit and I don't find that acceptable" or what? > I passed on the right rather than tailgate. ... right, since those are the only two options. Tailgating is just one of the potential valid options to choose from after all. > And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. So not "slower than the speed limit", but rather "slower than you'd expect". Sigh.
  - grvdrm 6mo ago
    I won't comment on whether it's acceptable to speed or not. I don't think that's the point. Most highways I drive on exhibit a predictable pattern. Slower folks in right lane. Faster folks in left lane. Maybe those slower folks are at the speed limit, or above, or below. Left lane folks somewhat faster. Should everyone obey the speed limit? Sure! Hard to argue that point. My observation was a Tesla driving at - let's call it "right lane speed" in the left lane. Maybe slower. Slow enough that you'd soon see a predictable back-up behind the car - some tailgating, brake usage, etc. The stuff that in my view leads to more accidents, swerving, and phantom traffic that occurs when people pile on each other, use brakes excessively, and end up slowing to a crawl. FWIW: The "is speeding acceptable" question is somewhat resolved by police. I rarely see people pulled over for speeding within the flow of traffic, vs. somewhat swerving in/out or just driving much faster than everyone. Don't remember the last time I saw an officer pick a car out of a normally flowing left lane to issue just that one driver a ticket.
throwanem 6mo ago
Real question, then, from someone who only bothers driving when he must and even then in a 2016 model: Why do you use it? What beneficial purpose do you find it to serve? I'm asking because I feel I must be missing something, inasmuch as to have my hands on the wheel while not controlling the car is an experience with which I'm familiar from skids and crashes, and thinking about it as an aspect of normal operation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. (Especially with no obviously described "deadman switch" or vigilance control!)
- x187463 6mo ago
  Here's a simple example from last week. FSD was in control on my way to work, stopped at a red light early in the morning before the sun was up. The light turns green and FSD does not accelerate. I figured it was somehow confused and I was starting to move toward hitting the accelerator myself when a car comes flying through the red light from the driver's side. I hadn't noticed this car, but FSD saw it and recognized it wasn't slowing down. I could see there were headlights, but it wasn't clear how fast it was going. It's just nice having a 'second set of eyes' in a sense. It's also very useful when driving in unfamiliar cities where much of my attention would be spent on navigation and trying to recognize markings/signs/light positions that are atypical. FSD handles the minutia of basic vehicle operation so I can focus on higher level decisions. Generally, at inner-city speeds, safety and time-to-act are less of an issue and it just becomes a matter of splitting attention between pedestrians, obstacles, navigation, etc. FSD if very helpful in these situations.
  - throwanem 6mo ago
    Huh. I appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response. I'll need to think about it for a while, too. It had not occurred to me to consider the possibility that someone else's FSD might protect me from the general incompetence and unreliability of amateur motor vehicle operators. (Jumping a light in the dark? Not thinking or learning to navigate by verbal instructions from your satnav or phone, instead of compromising the primary sense you must constantly use to drive without risking manslaughter? I'm sorry, but if this is the standard, I really can't describe it other than it is...to say nothing of your considering safety less important, as you say, in the "inner city" that is my home.)
XorNot 6mo ago
Which is just worse. When I'm driving I know what I'm doing, what I'm planning to do and can scan the road and controls with that context. Making me have to try and guess what the car is going to do at any given time is adding complexity to the process: am I changing lanes now, oh I guess I am because the autonomy thinks we should etc.
- x187463 6mo ago
  Sure, but the practical experience is that FSD is fairly predictable. It's just a matter of personal preference that comes from experience. I wouldn't impose a system like FSD on everybody.
  - FeloniousHam 6mo ago
    I'm a >90% FSD user, and I approve this sentiment. My wife hates it for the mistakes it makes (eg. seems like there is recent shadow recognition regression) and "errors in judgement" (not getting in the turn lane in a timely manner), she would never use it on her own. I've got plenty of experience, and (feel as though) I know most of it's failure points. I had to drive my 30 minute commute last week, and it was decidedly unfun. I have seen the future and I don't want to go back.
    - x187463 6mo ago
      96% here, including DC and Baltimore. Besides the bizarre Navigation choices and waiting to long for lane changes, FSD has reached essentially zero interventions outside of bad mapping situations. I really wish Tesla would use better map data, for sure.
- grvdrm 6mo ago
  Not sure about your car but the car I have with augmented cruise requires hands on wheel. Turns off otherwise. (Volvo XC90) I agree that there are situations where what I do as a trained driver is different from augmented cruise. A good example (or perhaps I'm wrong) is this: in a lane, car pulls into lane in front of me and between the car further ahead. Now I don't have enough space in between me and that new entrant. But instead of using brakes (unless eggregious), I bleed speed until I make space I want. Augmented cruise doesn't do that - it hits brakes. So, from behind, I think it looks like I'm using my brakes a lot more than I am when on augmented cruise. And excessive brake use distracts the driver behind me.

by x187463 6mo ago

grvdrm 6mo ago

Reminds me of a situation not long ago. I’m in left lane on highway. Tesla ahead of me but quite a ways away. I realize as I’m driving that the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. So - I passed on the right rather than tailgate. Look over and see a guy leaning back in his seat. No hands on wheel. Could’ve been asleep. And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. To your point about using it FSD the way you do, makes total sense to me. Which implies you would also cruise at the right speed depending on the lane you are in, unlike my example.

x187463 6mo ago
One of my major complaints about FSD is the 'speed profiles'. You used to be able to set a target speed directly. Now, you can only select a profile. You're either going the exact speed limit, 2-3mph over, or essentially 'with the flow of traffic' which can lead to speeding +15 over the limit.
- grvdrm 6mo ago
  Didn't know about that feature. Thanks for the illumination. On verge of going full electric and looking at BMW, Lucid, Porsche, Rivian, Tesla. I wonder what's taught to new drivers about this sort of situation. My intuitive feeling (driving for almost 30 years) is you drive with the flow of traffic when traffic is present. I don't see too many left lane drivers glued to speed limits, but it's obvious when someone is a fast or slow.
  - x187463 6mo ago
    It's worth noting that older Tesla's pre-2024, are stuck on an old version of FSD due to compute limitations. Recent FSD, generally, does not hang out in the left lane and is very good at recognizing when vehicles approach from the rear. It will move to the right lane to allow them to pass.
    - grvdrm 6mo ago
      Excellent -- noted.
Mawr 6mo ago
> the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. Is that code for "the Tesla was following the law by driving within the speed limit and I don't find that acceptable" or what? > I passed on the right rather than tailgate. ... right, since those are the only two options. Tailgating is just one of the potential valid options to choose from after all. > And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. So not "slower than the speed limit", but rather "slower than you'd expect". Sigh.
- grvdrm 6mo ago
  I won't comment on whether it's acceptable to speed or not. I don't think that's the point. Most highways I drive on exhibit a predictable pattern. Slower folks in right lane. Faster folks in left lane. Maybe those slower folks are at the speed limit, or above, or below. Left lane folks somewhat faster. Should everyone obey the speed limit? Sure! Hard to argue that point. My observation was a Tesla driving at - let's call it "right lane speed" in the left lane. Maybe slower. Slow enough that you'd soon see a predictable back-up behind the car - some tailgating, brake usage, etc. The stuff that in my view leads to more accidents, swerving, and phantom traffic that occurs when people pile on each other, use brakes excessively, and end up slowing to a crawl. FWIW: The "is speeding acceptable" question is somewhat resolved by police. I rarely see people pulled over for speeding within the flow of traffic, vs. somewhat swerving in/out or just driving much faster than everyone. Don't remember the last time I saw an officer pick a car out of a normally flowing left lane to issue just that one driver a ticket.

throwanem 6mo ago

Real question, then, from someone who only bothers driving when he must and even then in a 2016 model: Why do you use it? What beneficial purpose do you find it to serve? I'm asking because I feel I must be missing something, inasmuch as to have my hands on the wheel while not controlling the car is an experience with which I'm familiar from skids and crashes, and thinking about it as an aspect of normal operation makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. (Especially with no obviously described "deadman switch" or vigilance control!)

x187463 6mo ago
Here's a simple example from last week. FSD was in control on my way to work, stopped at a red light early in the morning before the sun was up. The light turns green and FSD does not accelerate. I figured it was somehow confused and I was starting to move toward hitting the accelerator myself when a car comes flying through the red light from the driver's side. I hadn't noticed this car, but FSD saw it and recognized it wasn't slowing down. I could see there were headlights, but it wasn't clear how fast it was going. It's just nice having a 'second set of eyes' in a sense. It's also very useful when driving in unfamiliar cities where much of my attention would be spent on navigation and trying to recognize markings/signs/light positions that are atypical. FSD handles the minutia of basic vehicle operation so I can focus on higher level decisions. Generally, at inner-city speeds, safety and time-to-act are less of an issue and it just becomes a matter of splitting attention between pedestrians, obstacles, navigation, etc. FSD if very helpful in these situations.
- throwanem 6mo ago
  Huh. I appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response. I'll need to think about it for a while, too. It had not occurred to me to consider the possibility that someone else's FSD might protect me from the general incompetence and unreliability of amateur motor vehicle operators. (Jumping a light in the dark? Not thinking or learning to navigate by verbal instructions from your satnav or phone, instead of compromising the primary sense you must constantly use to drive without risking manslaughter? I'm sorry, but if this is the standard, I really can't describe it other than it is...to say nothing of your considering safety less important, as you say, in the "inner city" that is my home.)

XorNot 6mo ago

Which is just worse. When I'm driving I know what I'm doing, what I'm planning to do and can scan the road and controls with that context. Making me have to try and guess what the car is going to do at any given time is adding complexity to the process: am I changing lanes now, oh I guess I am because the autonomy thinks we should etc.

x187463 6mo ago
Sure, but the practical experience is that FSD is fairly predictable. It's just a matter of personal preference that comes from experience. I wouldn't impose a system like FSD on everybody.
- FeloniousHam 6mo ago
  I'm a >90% FSD user, and I approve this sentiment. My wife hates it for the mistakes it makes (eg. seems like there is recent shadow recognition regression) and "errors in judgement" (not getting in the turn lane in a timely manner), she would never use it on her own. I've got plenty of experience, and (feel as though) I know most of it's failure points. I had to drive my 30 minute commute last week, and it was decidedly unfun. I have seen the future and I don't want to go back.
  - x187463 6mo ago
    96% here, including DC and Baltimore. Besides the bizarre Navigation choices and waiting to long for lane changes, FSD has reached essentially zero interventions outside of bad mapping situations. I really wish Tesla would use better map data, for sure.
grvdrm 6mo ago
Not sure about your car but the car I have with augmented cruise requires hands on wheel. Turns off otherwise. (Volvo XC90) I agree that there are situations where what I do as a trained driver is different from augmented cruise. A good example (or perhaps I'm wrong) is this: in a lane, car pulls into lane in front of me and between the car further ahead. Now I don't have enough space in between me and that new entrant. But instead of using brakes (unless eggregious), I bleed speed until I make space I want. Augmented cruise doesn't do that - it hits brakes. So, from behind, I think it looks like I'm using my brakes a lot more than I am when on augmented cruise. And excessive brake use distracts the driver behind me.