9 ms·

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to t

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to your experience, beliefs, and worldview. Judging people is often a self protection mechanism; which means you will almost never listen to someone. 3. Listening often means not jumping to a solution; but absorbing and processing someone’s pain. Product managers for example are quick to jump to a solution, a new feature, or they’ll push the request off as “oh, ok, we’ll make a ticket for that ” When in actuality, they should be listening to the use case, looking for the pain, and finding a way to solve the pain points. As opposed to trying to understand what feature the user wants to request.

ImHereToVote 6mo ago
You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing.
- tmoertel 6mo ago
  > You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing. This claim is demonstrably untrue. Do you believe that a written argument cannot be convincing? Or do you believe that when you read a written argument, your beliefs can somehow be transmitted back to the author, even if the author is long dead, and be convincing in that author’s mind?
jdthedisciple 6mo ago
> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. Not sure it's ever good to assume this beforehand though. Most things are negotiable, if you know how to negotiate right.
- close04 6mo ago
  More than that, sometimes one side doesn’t want to accept something because everything they know about it says it’s wrong. Then they’re faced with evidence and reason prevails. I usually have very strong opinions but try to hold on to them very loosely. It happened that I was convinced with evidence that I am right and refused to accept any alternative until new evidence slapped me in the face. At that point knowledge and discussion made me accept something I had previously thought preposterous, sometimes to the point of outright dismissing any conversation, this is how preposterous the proposition sounded at first sight. What I want to say is that if you don’t know your audience, if you don’t know for sure your attempts are fruitless, it’s always worth a shot to use your knowledge in a discussion and let the other party digest that and see if it that moves the needle.
- finghin 6mo ago
  You don’t have to assume it, but you should be more than prepared for it to be the case
- postalrat 6mo ago
  Well people love to try even though they always fail. It's a fun challenge to change someone's mind.
- digi59404 6mo ago
  I believe you’re right, it’s not great to assume this beforehand. Many things are negotiable, but there are a whole lot of things that aren’t. When you’re faced with convincing someone of $TruthA or $FactA and one of those two collides with a persons worldview, makes them uncomfortable, or causes them pain. Sometimes that truth or fact will be thrown out because of its ramifications. For example, if we’re in Iowa, and you prove to me that plastic straws don’t kill turtles.. but as a kid my first trip to the ocean resulted in seeing a dead turtle die to a straw. It’s going to be very difficult for me to believe otherwise. My statement about a person not accepting something because they won’t want too… is less about them.. and more about the person trying to argue/explain/etc. It’s important to identify when a topic won’t be accepted by an individual and to move on. It’s something I’ve struggled with in life. If you don’t identify it, you can risk overstaying your welcome. Which can lead to losing a trusted advisor status. It’s far better to keep the trusted advisor status and tackle the issue another time.
nunez 6mo ago
Presales discovery in a nutshell. It’s truly an art.
6P58r3MXJSLi 6mo ago
> To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state if it's not two ways, stop trying, stand up and leave.
- b3lvedere 6mo ago
  What a privilige it must be to be able to have a job where you can stand up and leave when your psyche can't handle it. Ever done tech support for ten hours a day? :)
  - 6P58r3MXJSLi 6mo ago
    I've done tech support for years, since 1996. Your assumptions are also very wrong, my psyche could kill you, I simply know what I want on my side and you on your side, we have to meet somewhere in the middle, otherwise it's not listening, it's abuse. If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody will. Your view is US centric, I live in Europe, we have rights, we can't be fired for having opinions. We don't work 10 hours a day, we have rights. You have this strange stance where employees are slaves, living in a one man dictatorship. We are not.
    - kraai 6mo ago
      Yes this clearly illustrates the difference in labour laws and basic human rights between US and Europe. "to have a job where you can stand up and leave when your psyche can't handle it." This just sounds nuts to me, not being able to have the right for sick days/leave when your mentally unwell... It's also counter-productive, people that are unwell won't be very efficient. Happy and healthy people work better.
      - johnnyanmac 6mo ago
        For a while now, the US has been on a position where they do not care about "better work", because better work is not making the line go up as fast anymore. That's pretty much the core factor that will lead to the next major financial crash when reality eventually catches up.
tomaskafka 6mo ago
"When in actuality, they should be listening to the use case, looking for the pain, and finding a way to solve the pain points." You have now described the value of product design (no matter if the person doing this is labeled PM, UX, Product design, or whatever)
WalterBright 6mo ago
I don't worry about such things, because I have never been in error yet.
- TeamGTN 6mo ago
  OK Nomad!
b3lvedere 6mo ago
"To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state." If you can guarantuee me this will not be abused in every situation ever and/or come back to haunt me, i will gladly always give up as much time as i can to actually listen. :)
- yetihehe 6mo ago
  Without effort there is rarely a big effort. You have to listen to achieve better results. If you don't listen, your results will be misaligned. Unfortunately no one can guarantee that you won't be abused. You have to ask yourself if the risk of being abused is worth the result (typical result: bigger money for a better program).
  - b3lvedere 6mo ago
    Kinda depends on what your position and circle of influence is. I will admit that sometimes the circle of influence seems bigger than expected though.
- azath92 6mo ago
  Id guess by your smile there is an element of humor in your response, so this isn't a rebuttal, but rather i identified a lot with your point, and I was thinking that this is such a human response to vulnerability. If it was guaranteed that it will not be abused or that I would regret it, it would not _be_ vulnerable. Just like its not bravery if I am not afraid or I am assured of my safety. Such a paradox. Being vulnerable for me is acknowledging that it might have an increased probability of a more negative outcome, but still trying to be vulnerable because of the huge connection unlocks that (often) occur in my experience. On balance intellectually i am coming to see the expected value from being vulnerable in communications is high, but my little lizard brain keeps saying to me "what if you get hurt though" and being closed off haha. its an exercise to shut it up.
  - b3lvedere 6mo ago
    I've had the privilege to have been more than half a century on this planet and my experience has not been super great regarding being vulnerable. It takes great skill to not have it mentally affect you. Even if you get ten thousand positive results, a mere two bad results will affect you even more. Nevertheless i agreee it is always better to start with empathy.
an_13a 6mo ago
ive listened my fair share . sometimes ppl get stuck in cogitation . especially around their pain points . having someone throw them off by implementing a solution helps reframe their thoughts . we discuss the solution instead . on the other hand, my empathy may come off as lacking .
Imanari 6mo ago
> Listening often means not jumping to a solution; but absorbing and processing someone’s pain > When in actuality, they should [...] finding a way to solve the pain points Honest question, how do I 'absorb someones pain'? And how do I transition from that into eventually formulating the feature/ticket?
busyant 6mo ago
The points in # 2 are profound. I plan on sending this to someone who is dear to me. Maybe he will "listen" to it, too. Thank you.
- balamatom 6mo ago
  Let us know how that goes, telling someone who is defending themself from you how they should "Be More Vulnerable!"
  - cindyllm 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - jamespo 6mo ago
    "The closed mind, if closed long enough, can be opened by nothing short of dynamite."
  - busyant 6mo ago
    it's my son. he's young, bright, but puts up defenses to protect his perceived vulnerabilities. I try to explain to him that exposing your vulnerabilities humanizes you... at least it does to the type of people I admire. but sometimes being 19 is difficult in that way.
    - balamatom 6mo ago
      It's hard. Just a thought - maybe he will open up more if he feels more safe.
JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
> 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept Discussion, probably not. Modifying incentive structures, absolutely.
- johnnyanmac 6mo ago
  Do most people in an organisation have that power?
zahlman 6mo ago
> listening to the use case, looking for the pain, and finding a way to solve the pain points. As opposed to trying to understand what feature the user wants to request. ... What is the distinction you're drawing here? How is "the feature the user wants to request" (note: not necessarily the feature the user actually requests) different from "the solution to the pain point"? Why would the user want a feature that doesn't alleviate the pain?
arduanika 6mo ago
> 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to your experience, beliefs, and worldview. Judging people is often a self protection mechanism; which means you will almost never listen to someone. A gem, thanks. This can be especially rough for fans of early pg essays. You might find out that you didn't actually keep your identity so small after all. A double whammy!
xnx 6mo ago
> and finding a way to solve the pain points. As opposed to trying to understand what feature the user wants to request. Careful, this is also arrogance that you know what the user wants better than they do.
johnnyanmac 6mo ago
> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. I think this is what causes many people (software or otherwise" to shut down. Listening is important but a 2-way street. Someone choosing not to listen to you turns a discussion into a demand. And "demands" are where the technical/Non-technical split get tricky . Does a doctor listen to some executive to do a thing that betrays their parient and oath? Less seriously, does a programmer listen to a product manager to prioritize B over A (A in which turns into a showstopper in a few weeks' time), or try to go around them to emphasize A needs work now (remember, PM is assumedly not accepting it anymore)? Discussions devolving into demands into your craft is the worst.
vismit2000 5mo ago
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!

ImHereToVote 6mo ago

You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing.

tmoertel 6mo ago
> You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing. This claim is demonstrably untrue. Do you believe that a written argument cannot be convincing? Or do you believe that when you read a written argument, your beliefs can somehow be transmitted back to the author, even if the author is long dead, and be convincing in that author’s mind?

jdthedisciple 6mo ago

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. Not sure it's ever good to assume this beforehand though. Most things are negotiable, if you know how to negotiate right.

close04 6mo ago
More than that, sometimes one side doesn’t want to accept something because everything they know about it says it’s wrong. Then they’re faced with evidence and reason prevails. I usually have very strong opinions but try to hold on to them very loosely. It happened that I was convinced with evidence that I am right and refused to accept any alternative until new evidence slapped me in the face. At that point knowledge and discussion made me accept something I had previously thought preposterous, sometimes to the point of outright dismissing any conversation, this is how preposterous the proposition sounded at first sight. What I want to say is that if you don’t know your audience, if you don’t know for sure your attempts are fruitless, it’s always worth a shot to use your knowledge in a discussion and let the other party digest that and see if it that moves the needle.
finghin 6mo ago
You don’t have to assume it, but you should be more than prepared for it to be the case
postalrat 6mo ago
Well people love to try even though they always fail. It's a fun challenge to change someone's mind.
digi59404 6mo ago
I believe you’re right, it’s not great to assume this beforehand. Many things are negotiable, but there are a whole lot of things that aren’t. When you’re faced with convincing someone of $TruthA or $FactA and one of those two collides with a persons worldview, makes them uncomfortable, or causes them pain. Sometimes that truth or fact will be thrown out because of its ramifications. For example, if we’re in Iowa, and you prove to me that plastic straws don’t kill turtles.. but as a kid my first trip to the ocean resulted in seeing a dead turtle die to a straw. It’s going to be very difficult for me to believe otherwise. My statement about a person not accepting something because they won’t want too… is less about them.. and more about the person trying to argue/explain/etc. It’s important to identify when a topic won’t be accepted by an individual and to move on. It’s something I’ve struggled with in life. If you don’t identify it, you can risk overstaying your welcome. Which can lead to losing a trusted advisor status. It’s far better to keep the trusted advisor status and tackle the issue another time.

nunez 6mo ago

Presales discovery in a nutshell. It’s truly an art.

6P58r3MXJSLi 6mo ago

> To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state if it's not two ways, stop trying, stand up and leave.

b3lvedere 6mo ago
What a privilige it must be to be able to have a job where you can stand up and leave when your psyche can't handle it. Ever done tech support for ten hours a day? :)
- 6P58r3MXJSLi 6mo ago
  I've done tech support for years, since 1996. Your assumptions are also very wrong, my psyche could kill you, I simply know what I want on my side and you on your side, we have to meet somewhere in the middle, otherwise it's not listening, it's abuse. If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody will. Your view is US centric, I live in Europe, we have rights, we can't be fired for having opinions. We don't work 10 hours a day, we have rights. You have this strange stance where employees are slaves, living in a one man dictatorship. We are not.
  - kraai 6mo ago
    Yes this clearly illustrates the difference in labour laws and basic human rights between US and Europe. "to have a job where you can stand up and leave when your psyche can't handle it." This just sounds nuts to me, not being able to have the right for sick days/leave when your mentally unwell... It's also counter-productive, people that are unwell won't be very efficient. Happy and healthy people work better.
    - johnnyanmac 6mo ago
      For a while now, the US has been on a position where they do not care about "better work", because better work is not making the line go up as fast anymore. That's pretty much the core factor that will lead to the next major financial crash when reality eventually catches up.

tomaskafka 6mo ago

"When in actuality, they should be listening to the use case, looking for the pain, and finding a way to solve the pain points." You have now described the value of product design (no matter if the person doing this is labeled PM, UX, Product design, or whatever)

WalterBright 6mo ago

I don't worry about such things, because I have never been in error yet.

TeamGTN 6mo ago
OK Nomad!

b3lvedere 6mo ago

"To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state." If you can guarantuee me this will not be abused in every situation ever and/or come back to haunt me, i will gladly always give up as much time as i can to actually listen. :)

yetihehe 6mo ago
Without effort there is rarely a big effort. You have to listen to achieve better results. If you don't listen, your results will be misaligned. Unfortunately no one can guarantee that you won't be abused. You have to ask yourself if the risk of being abused is worth the result (typical result: bigger money for a better program).
- b3lvedere 6mo ago
  Kinda depends on what your position and circle of influence is. I will admit that sometimes the circle of influence seems bigger than expected though.
azath92 6mo ago
Id guess by your smile there is an element of humor in your response, so this isn't a rebuttal, but rather i identified a lot with your point, and I was thinking that this is such a human response to vulnerability. If it was guaranteed that it will not be abused or that I would regret it, it would not _be_ vulnerable. Just like its not bravery if I am not afraid or I am assured of my safety. Such a paradox. Being vulnerable for me is acknowledging that it might have an increased probability of a more negative outcome, but still trying to be vulnerable because of the huge connection unlocks that (often) occur in my experience. On balance intellectually i am coming to see the expected value from being vulnerable in communications is high, but my little lizard brain keeps saying to me "what if you get hurt though" and being closed off haha. its an exercise to shut it up.
- b3lvedere 6mo ago
  I've had the privilege to have been more than half a century on this planet and my experience has not been super great regarding being vulnerable. It takes great skill to not have it mentally affect you. Even if you get ten thousand positive results, a mere two bad results will affect you even more. Nevertheless i agreee it is always better to start with empathy.

an_13a 6mo ago

ive listened my fair share . sometimes ppl get stuck in cogitation . especially around their pain points . having someone throw them off by implementing a solution helps reframe their thoughts . we discuss the solution instead . on the other hand, my empathy may come off as lacking .

Imanari 6mo ago

> Listening often means not jumping to a solution; but absorbing and processing someone’s pain > When in actuality, they should [...] finding a way to solve the pain points Honest question, how do I 'absorb someones pain'? And how do I transition from that into eventually formulating the feature/ticket?

busyant 6mo ago

The points in # 2 are profound. I plan on sending this to someone who is dear to me. Maybe he will "listen" to it, too. Thank you.

balamatom 6mo ago
Let us know how that goes, telling someone who is defending themself from you how they should "Be More Vulnerable!"
- cindyllm 6mo ago
  [dead]
- jamespo 6mo ago
  "The closed mind, if closed long enough, can be opened by nothing short of dynamite."
- busyant 6mo ago
  it's my son. he's young, bright, but puts up defenses to protect his perceived vulnerabilities. I try to explain to him that exposing your vulnerabilities humanizes you... at least it does to the type of people I admire. but sometimes being 19 is difficult in that way.
  - balamatom 6mo ago
    It's hard. Just a thought - maybe he will open up more if he feels more safe.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

> 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept Discussion, probably not. Modifying incentive structures, absolutely.

johnnyanmac 6mo ago
Do most people in an organisation have that power?

zahlman 6mo ago

> listening to the use case, looking for the pain, and finding a way to solve the pain points. As opposed to trying to understand what feature the user wants to request. ... What is the distinction you're drawing here? How is "the feature the user wants to request" (note: not necessarily the feature the user actually requests) different from "the solution to the pain point"? Why would the user want a feature that doesn't alleviate the pain?

arduanika 6mo ago

> 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to your experience, beliefs, and worldview. Judging people is often a self protection mechanism; which means you will almost never listen to someone. A gem, thanks. This can be especially rough for fans of early pg essays. You might find out that you didn't actually keep your identity so small after all. A double whammy!

xnx 6mo ago

> and finding a way to solve the pain points. As opposed to trying to understand what feature the user wants to request. Careful, this is also arrogance that you know what the user wants better than they do.

johnnyanmac 6mo ago

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. I think this is what causes many people (software or otherwise" to shut down. Listening is important but a 2-way street. Someone choosing not to listen to you turns a discussion into a demand. And "demands" are where the technical/Non-technical split get tricky . Does a doctor listen to some executive to do a thing that betrays their parient and oath? Less seriously, does a programmer listen to a product manager to prioritize B over A (A in which turns into a showstopper in a few weeks' time), or try to go around them to emphasize A needs work now (remember, PM is assumedly not accepting it anymore)? Discussions devolving into demands into your craft is the worst.

vismit2000 5mo ago

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!