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When I was in college, your grade fully depended on the oral exam/debate with the professor. Everything else was but the entry ticket. Not sure anyone even att

by Swizec 6mo ago

When I was in college, your grade fully depended on the oral exam/debate with the professor. Everything else was but the entry ticket. Not sure anyone even attempted to cheat in that scenario. And the conversations were usually great, although very stressful for us cramming types

mjlee 6mo ago
This sounds extremely susceptible to unconscious bias, or even just straightforward discrimination.
- Swizec 6mo ago
  It does! That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. If you don’t pass after 3 tries, commission is mandatory. You also have a paper trail of written exams and midterms to back you up. If you keep getting good grades and failing the oral, people will find that obviously suspicious. Honestly the only times I had any trouble in the orals were the exams where I baaaaarely passed the written. Usually oral feels like the chill easy part compared to written because you can have a back-n-forth with the professor.
  - Terr_ 6mo ago
    > It does! That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. Still concerning from a statistical/psych fairness aspect. There's a famous example of the Boston Symphony trying to fairly judge unseen applicants in 1952, and their results kept getting gender-skewed until they adjusted for the fact judges were reacting to the sound of shoes (e.g. high heels) when the candidate moved around behind the divider.
  - ryukoposting 6mo ago
    > That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. Ah yes, the classic "if you think the system is abusing you, you shall out yourself to the system that's abusing you if you want any chance of recourse." Because a tribunal run by the people you're lodging a complaint against can't possibly be biased.
- jubilanti 6mo ago
  Moreso than a job interview?
  - gpm 6mo ago
    More systematic than a job interview. If you don't get one job you should have - there are others - it's unfortunate but not life altering. If 3 years into your marine biology program a professor who always teaches a mandatory course fails you because you're a woman who wears non traditional dress - you're not graduating and now there are no jobs. (And this is an example that actually happened to someone I know - not in a western country)
fl4regun 6mo ago
I think the oral exam is probably a great way to ascertain a student's ability, but let's be real, undergraduate class sizes numbers in the hundreds, for almost every first year class. I don't think it's possible to administer that. I think I would have loved to see that in my later years at university though, we still just did things by written exam + course work.
- Swizec 6mo ago
  > let's be real, undergraduate class sizes numbers in the hundreds, for almost every first year class. I don't think it's possible to administer that Our first year class was about 250 people. It was fine. By the 4th year, class sizes were a much more manageable 30 to 50. You get maybe 10 to 15 minutes with the professor (usually more in later years), they ask 3 questions with some followup. That’s 1 work week for the professor. And less than half the students even make it that far for every exam season (3 per school year) so you’re looking at something like 3 days of work. It’s fine.

by Swizec 6mo ago

mjlee 6mo ago

This sounds extremely susceptible to unconscious bias, or even just straightforward discrimination.

Swizec 6mo ago
It does! That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. If you don’t pass after 3 tries, commission is mandatory. You also have a paper trail of written exams and midterms to back you up. If you keep getting good grades and failing the oral, people will find that obviously suspicious. Honestly the only times I had any trouble in the orals were the exams where I baaaaarely passed the written. Usually oral feels like the chill easy part compared to written because you can have a back-n-forth with the professor.
- Terr_ 6mo ago
  > It does! That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. Still concerning from a statistical/psych fairness aspect. There's a famous example of the Boston Symphony trying to fairly judge unseen applicants in 1952, and their results kept getting gender-skewed until they adjusted for the fact judges were reacting to the sound of shoes (e.g. high heels) when the candidate moved around behind the divider.
- ryukoposting 6mo ago
  > That’s why you can ask to be evaluated by a commission of professors. Ah yes, the classic "if you think the system is abusing you, you shall out yourself to the system that's abusing you if you want any chance of recourse." Because a tribunal run by the people you're lodging a complaint against can't possibly be biased.
jubilanti 6mo ago
Moreso than a job interview?
- gpm 6mo ago
  More systematic than a job interview. If you don't get one job you should have - there are others - it's unfortunate but not life altering. If 3 years into your marine biology program a professor who always teaches a mandatory course fails you because you're a woman who wears non traditional dress - you're not graduating and now there are no jobs. (And this is an example that actually happened to someone I know - not in a western country)

fl4regun 6mo ago

I think the oral exam is probably a great way to ascertain a student's ability, but let's be real, undergraduate class sizes numbers in the hundreds, for almost every first year class. I don't think it's possible to administer that. I think I would have loved to see that in my later years at university though, we still just did things by written exam + course work.

Swizec 6mo ago
> let's be real, undergraduate class sizes numbers in the hundreds, for almost every first year class. I don't think it's possible to administer that Our first year class was about 250 people. It was fine. By the 4th year, class sizes were a much more manageable 30 to 50. You get maybe 10 to 15 minutes with the professor (usually more in later years), they ask 3 questions with some followup. That’s 1 work week for the professor. And less than half the students even make it that far for every exam season (3 per school year) so you’re looking at something like 3 days of work. It’s fine.