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>how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive?

>how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? My bias/priors are that the simpler and truer statement is: it can't be overstated how beneficial more permissive zoning laws are to a society.

dangus 6mo ago
Sometimes permissive zoning laws don’t actually encourage positive urban development outcomes. Example: Texas Zoning has to both exist and be well-designed.
- zbrozek 6mo ago
  I bet you'd see natural market driven concentration around rail stations in Texas too, if they had a useful rail network.
  - XenophileJKO 6mo ago
    You might be surprised, look at Dallas. They have a pretty extensive rail network.
    - Schiendelman 6mo ago
      Dallas does not have permissive zoning, even in comparison to a city like Seattle.
  - jt2190 6mo ago
    Dallas-Area Rapid Transit (DART) member cities all had to develop 25-year plans for denser development around station sites as a condition of their membership, if that’s what you mean by “natural”.
- graeme 6mo ago
  Texas zoning isn't nearly as permissive as Japan's. Setbacks are a big added requirement. Minimum parking requirements too though that is changing. But it would not be legal to build japanese neighbourhoods in Texas.
- larsiusprime 6mo ago
  Texas zoning is only “permissive” relative to other states. Relative to Japan it’s quite restrictive.
zbrozek 6mo ago
That's a big part of it. They also do zoning mostly at the federal level, meaning local opposition isn't relevant.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
nottorp 6mo ago
From what I remember, Japanese zoning allows small shops (there's a size limit) in any residential zone. That means no car trips when you run out of bread or milk. Smartest property of that zoning system IMO.
- infecto 6mo ago
  I also wonder how much the pressure filled culture of not standing out has something to do with this. My impression is Japanese are under a lot more pressure to not abuse the permissiveness of the zoning laws.
  - llbeansandrice 6mo ago
    What do you mean by “abuse”?
    - fc417fc802 6mo ago
      I'm not meaning to take a dig at you, but the fact that you (and presumably many others) can genuinely ask that question serves to illustrate the parent's point quite nicely. To spell it out, "abuse" here means to engage in behavior that is socially undesirable or disruptive or would generally be expected to upset otherwise reasonable neighbors or whatever while nonetheless falling within the bounds of the law. An alarmingly large amount of what goes on in the US falls into that category IMO.
      - llbeansandrice 5mo ago
        The parent comment is specifically talking about abusing zoning laws. It’s also a very generic term and I’m interested in what would be an abuse of zoning laws specifically. There are many kinds of zoning laws going as far as to say how tall and how open fences have to be depending on the type of yard the fence encloses. Eg a backyard can have a 7ft high 100% closed fence while a front yard is limited to 4ft and must be 50% open. How someone can “abuse” sections of the law that can get so wildly specific as to restrict paint color is lost on me. I don’t buy into the Japanese exceptionalism in such generic terms. Show your work.
Tiktaalik 6mo ago
There are other aspects beyond simply being more permissive. I recall reading for example that property transfer tax is remarkably less on bare land, enough so that when travelling in Japan you will regularly notice bare lots for sale, as it is beneficial for the seller to tear down a lot before they sell it. This sort of thing encourages churn of housing, and coupled with liberal zoning, enables an accelerated increase in denser building. Tbh it probably encourages lower construction costs since more people are doing construction. IMO in this whole conversation, whether discussing any jurisdiction not just japan, impacts of zoning is an over emphasized and tax policy under emphasized (ie. almost never discussed).
- cucumber3732842 6mo ago
  I have a hard time believing that a tax code that incentives destruction in any capacity is a good thing. If the land is more valuable without a structure the current owner has natural incentive to do that, or someone else has incentive to buy, demolish and re-list.
- SenHeng 6mo ago
  Property taxes on land zoned for residential use are 6x more expensive if left bare. That’s why Japan has an akiya plague, because even a dilapidated building will keep taxes down. I couldn’t find a more general article so here’s an example from a generic small town council. https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/faq/kurashi/1001633/1001663/1001681.html https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/faq/kurashi/1001633/10016...
  - Tiktaalik 6mo ago
    You're right. I'm not sure how I got mislead or misremembered the dynamic here. I thought there was a specific clear tax benefit but doesn't seem so. There are tax benefits for new buildings for a limited time so maybe that's what I was thinking about and became confused.
    - throwaway2037 6mo ago
      Leaving aside your mistake, you raise a great point. Why are there so many empty lots in central Tokyo for sale? It makes no sense financially! Maybe they assume they can tear-down the existing structure and sell it faster than the tax penalty will hit?
bsder 6mo ago
> I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? Let's start from the glaring problem: The purpose of the US zoning system was institutionalized racism to keep the "undesirables" out rather than anything having to do with development management. Once you realize that, all of the misfeatures (NIMBY, excessive permitting, sclerotic bureaucracy, public participation) make obvious sense. Practically every zoning system would be better than that.
throwaway2037 6mo ago
This is a fair question. In short: Permissive. If you want to learn more, talk with any LLM about it. There are a bazillion YouTube videos and blog posts discussing the matter to no end. Here is a good YouTube video to you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5pPcV54kiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5pPcV54kiQ

dangus 6mo ago

Sometimes permissive zoning laws don’t actually encourage positive urban development outcomes. Example: Texas Zoning has to both exist and be well-designed.

zbrozek 6mo ago
I bet you'd see natural market driven concentration around rail stations in Texas too, if they had a useful rail network.
- XenophileJKO 6mo ago
  You might be surprised, look at Dallas. They have a pretty extensive rail network.
  - Schiendelman 6mo ago
    Dallas does not have permissive zoning, even in comparison to a city like Seattle.
- jt2190 6mo ago
  Dallas-Area Rapid Transit (DART) member cities all had to develop 25-year plans for denser development around station sites as a condition of their membership, if that’s what you mean by “natural”.
graeme 6mo ago
Texas zoning isn't nearly as permissive as Japan's. Setbacks are a big added requirement. Minimum parking requirements too though that is changing. But it would not be legal to build japanese neighbourhoods in Texas.
larsiusprime 6mo ago
Texas zoning is only “permissive” relative to other states. Relative to Japan it’s quite restrictive.

zbrozek 6mo ago

That's a big part of it. They also do zoning mostly at the federal level, meaning local opposition isn't relevant.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

nottorp 6mo ago

From what I remember, Japanese zoning allows small shops (there's a size limit) in any residential zone. That means no car trips when you run out of bread or milk. Smartest property of that zoning system IMO.

infecto 6mo ago
I also wonder how much the pressure filled culture of not standing out has something to do with this. My impression is Japanese are under a lot more pressure to not abuse the permissiveness of the zoning laws.
- llbeansandrice 6mo ago
  What do you mean by “abuse”?
  - fc417fc802 6mo ago
    I'm not meaning to take a dig at you, but the fact that you (and presumably many others) can genuinely ask that question serves to illustrate the parent's point quite nicely. To spell it out, "abuse" here means to engage in behavior that is socially undesirable or disruptive or would generally be expected to upset otherwise reasonable neighbors or whatever while nonetheless falling within the bounds of the law. An alarmingly large amount of what goes on in the US falls into that category IMO.
    - llbeansandrice 5mo ago
      The parent comment is specifically talking about abusing zoning laws. It’s also a very generic term and I’m interested in what would be an abuse of zoning laws specifically. There are many kinds of zoning laws going as far as to say how tall and how open fences have to be depending on the type of yard the fence encloses. Eg a backyard can have a 7ft high 100% closed fence while a front yard is limited to 4ft and must be 50% open. How someone can “abuse” sections of the law that can get so wildly specific as to restrict paint color is lost on me. I don’t buy into the Japanese exceptionalism in such generic terms. Show your work.

Tiktaalik 6mo ago

There are other aspects beyond simply being more permissive. I recall reading for example that property transfer tax is remarkably less on bare land, enough so that when travelling in Japan you will regularly notice bare lots for sale, as it is beneficial for the seller to tear down a lot before they sell it. This sort of thing encourages churn of housing, and coupled with liberal zoning, enables an accelerated increase in denser building. Tbh it probably encourages lower construction costs since more people are doing construction. IMO in this whole conversation, whether discussing any jurisdiction not just japan, impacts of zoning is an over emphasized and tax policy under emphasized (ie. almost never discussed).

cucumber3732842 6mo ago
I have a hard time believing that a tax code that incentives destruction in any capacity is a good thing. If the land is more valuable without a structure the current owner has natural incentive to do that, or someone else has incentive to buy, demolish and re-list.
SenHeng 6mo ago
Property taxes on land zoned for residential use are 6x more expensive if left bare. That’s why Japan has an akiya plague, because even a dilapidated building will keep taxes down. I couldn’t find a more general article so here’s an example from a generic small town council. https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/faq/kurashi/1001633/1001663/1001681.html https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/faq/kurashi/1001633/10016...
- Tiktaalik 6mo ago
  You're right. I'm not sure how I got mislead or misremembered the dynamic here. I thought there was a specific clear tax benefit but doesn't seem so. There are tax benefits for new buildings for a limited time so maybe that's what I was thinking about and became confused.
  - throwaway2037 6mo ago
    Leaving aside your mistake, you raise a great point. Why are there so many empty lots in central Tokyo for sale? It makes no sense financially! Maybe they assume they can tear-down the existing structure and sell it faster than the tax penalty will hit?

bsder 6mo ago

> I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? Let's start from the glaring problem: The purpose of the US zoning system was institutionalized racism to keep the "undesirables" out rather than anything having to do with development management. Once you realize that, all of the misfeatures (NIMBY, excessive permitting, sclerotic bureaucracy, public participation) make obvious sense. Practically every zoning system would be better than that.

throwaway2037 6mo ago

This is a fair question. In short: Permissive. If you want to learn more, talk with any LLM about it. There are a bazillion YouTube videos and blog posts discussing the matter to no end. Here is a good YouTube video to you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5pPcV54kiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5pPcV54kiQ