4 ms·

It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting

It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting [0]. The short of it is that social categorizations we believe in like race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way. Reich is a world-class expert in genetics. He simply commits the same error as many other other experts in discounting the complexity of subjects he's adjacent to, but not directly an expert in. I get that this is a high standard to hold him to (and I sure as heck don't meet it myself), but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse. [0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bfopinion/race-genetics-david-reich https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bfopinion/race-genetics...

dmitrygr 6mo ago
> race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way Please explain the complications. Use scientific terms only.
- tsimionescu 6mo ago
  The biggest complication is that the current notion of human race is largely based on skin color (with a few adjacent physical traits), which has very little to do with population genetics. In particular, black skin color is a dominant genetic trait, meaning that you can easily have individuals and even entire subpopulations that are black skinned, but have much more genetic similarity to traditionally white skinned populations (being descendents of a few black skinned individuals who married into a larger white skinned population) - while they would still be categorized as "black" in terms of race. Conversely, genetically isolated black skinned populations are also often lumped together as "the black race". Another major complexity is that some races are defined more by genealogic ancestry than by genetic ancestry or easily identifiable physical characteristics. For example, people are normally considered Jewish if they have a Jewish mother. This leads to many genetically disparate subpopulations being lumped together as a Jewish race.
MontyCarloHall 6mo ago
The crux of that letter is the "need to recognize that meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation exist in our species that are not racial." This is true. However, this does not mean that there aren't also meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation that do stratify according to ancestry (not race!). The letter tries to handwave this away, claiming that "[f]or several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference." This is simply not true, as studies like the subject of this discussion demonstrate. The letter also states that "[t]he public should not cede the power to define race to scientists who themselves are not trained to understand the social contexts that shape the formation of this fraught category." Also true! This is exactly why Reich explicitly avoids discussing "races" but rather populations and ancestries, which are rigorously defined strictly in terms of genetics. With respect to population structures and ancestry, Reich is indeed an expert. I'll add that very few of the signatories of that letter have any experience, let alone expertise in genetics. Here are the first few: Jonathan Kahn, James E. Kelley Professor of Law, Mitchell Hamline School of Law Alondra Nelson, Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies, Columbia University; President, Social Science Research Council Joseph L. Graves Jr., Associate Dean for Research & Professor of Biological Sciences, Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Section G: Biological Sciences, Joint School of Nanoscience & Nanoengineering, North Carolina A&T State University, UNC Greensboro Sarah Abel, Postdoc, Department of Anthropology, University of Iceland Ruha Benjamin, Associate Professor, Department of African American Studies, Princeton University Sarah Blacker, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin Catherine Bliss, Associate Professor, Social and Behavioral Sciences, UC San Francisco Out of the 67 signatories, I counted approximately 5 who might have sufficient genetics expertise to offer a meaningful scientific counterpoint to Reich's work (this is being charitable, as I included titles like "Professor of Biological Sciences," which is no guarantee.) The rest were in fields like anthropology, sociology, law, and history.
- AlotOfReading 6mo ago
  This is simply not true. Yes, because it's not an argument the letter is making. Everyone can name a meaningful genetic patterns of genetic variation that follow ancestry like lactase persistence. The argument is in the second paragraph: But his skillfulness with ancient and contemporary DNA should not be confused with a mastery of the cultural, political, and biological meanings of human groups. It's not an argument that Reich gets the science wrong, so other geneticists being on the list is neither here nor there. When he says things like: But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.” in NYT opinion pieces, it's that he's not understanding how terminology interacts with public discourse. The next paragraph goes on to use the unclear term "west african", not exactly a great example of careful language either. The list is mainly people in fields that deal with these things, as you'd expect.
GorbachevyChase 6mo ago
Fortunately, there are many wise laymen such as yourself in the internet to correct him.
dmitrygr 6mo ago
> but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse. Why? He presented real verified science. Anyone who is offended or does not like it ... well, too bad... the world does not care. Facts are facts. He does not owe you or anyone else comfort. He presents cold hard truth, and sometimes truth hurts. Tough.
timmg 6mo ago
Not the person you were replying to, but: did you read that letter? It is horribly argued. It's mostly poor analogies and non-sequiturs. It's no wonder Buzzfeed was the only place they could get to publish it.

dmitrygr 6mo ago

> race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way Please explain the complications. Use scientific terms only.

tsimionescu 6mo ago
The biggest complication is that the current notion of human race is largely based on skin color (with a few adjacent physical traits), which has very little to do with population genetics. In particular, black skin color is a dominant genetic trait, meaning that you can easily have individuals and even entire subpopulations that are black skinned, but have much more genetic similarity to traditionally white skinned populations (being descendents of a few black skinned individuals who married into a larger white skinned population) - while they would still be categorized as "black" in terms of race. Conversely, genetically isolated black skinned populations are also often lumped together as "the black race". Another major complexity is that some races are defined more by genealogic ancestry than by genetic ancestry or easily identifiable physical characteristics. For example, people are normally considered Jewish if they have a Jewish mother. This leads to many genetically disparate subpopulations being lumped together as a Jewish race.

MontyCarloHall 6mo ago

The crux of that letter is the "need to recognize that meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation exist in our species that are not racial." This is true. However, this does not mean that there aren't also meaningful patterns of genetic and biological variation that do stratify according to ancestry (not race!). The letter tries to handwave this away, claiming that "[f]or several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference." This is simply not true, as studies like the subject of this discussion demonstrate. The letter also states that "[t]he public should not cede the power to define race to scientists who themselves are not trained to understand the social contexts that shape the formation of this fraught category." Also true! This is exactly why Reich explicitly avoids discussing "races" but rather populations and ancestries, which are rigorously defined strictly in terms of genetics. With respect to population structures and ancestry, Reich is indeed an expert. I'll add that very few of the signatories of that letter have any experience, let alone expertise in genetics. Here are the first few: Jonathan Kahn, James E. Kelley Professor of Law, Mitchell Hamline School of Law Alondra Nelson, Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies, Columbia University; President, Social Science Research Council Joseph L. Graves Jr., Associate Dean for Research & Professor of Biological Sciences, Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Section G: Biological Sciences, Joint School of Nanoscience & Nanoengineering, North Carolina A&T State University, UNC Greensboro Sarah Abel, Postdoc, Department of Anthropology, University of Iceland Ruha Benjamin, Associate Professor, Department of African American Studies, Princeton University Sarah Blacker, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin Catherine Bliss, Associate Professor, Social and Behavioral Sciences, UC San Francisco Out of the 67 signatories, I counted approximately 5 who might have sufficient genetics expertise to offer a meaningful scientific counterpoint to Reich's work (this is being charitable, as I included titles like "Professor of Biological Sciences," which is no guarantee.) The rest were in fields like anthropology, sociology, law, and history.

AlotOfReading 6mo ago
This is simply not true. Yes, because it's not an argument the letter is making. Everyone can name a meaningful genetic patterns of genetic variation that follow ancestry like lactase persistence. The argument is in the second paragraph: But his skillfulness with ancient and contemporary DNA should not be confused with a mastery of the cultural, political, and biological meanings of human groups. It's not an argument that Reich gets the science wrong, so other geneticists being on the list is neither here nor there. When he says things like: But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among “races.” in NYT opinion pieces, it's that he's not understanding how terminology interacts with public discourse. The next paragraph goes on to use the unclear term "west african", not exactly a great example of careful language either. The list is mainly people in fields that deal with these things, as you'd expect.

GorbachevyChase 6mo ago

Fortunately, there are many wise laymen such as yourself in the internet to correct him.

dmitrygr 6mo ago

> but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse. Why? He presented real verified science. Anyone who is offended or does not like it ... well, too bad... the world does not care. Facts are facts. He does not owe you or anyone else comfort. He presents cold hard truth, and sometimes truth hurts. Tough.

timmg 6mo ago

Not the person you were replying to, but: did you read that letter? It is horribly argued. It's mostly poor analogies and non-sequiturs. It's no wonder Buzzfeed was the only place they could get to publish it.