4 ms·

David Moss is a traveling LiDAR salesman. He doesn’t work for Tesla, and Tesla didn’t know about him until one of his tweets about his FSD experience went viral

by ggreer 6mo ago

David Moss is a traveling LiDAR salesman. He doesn’t work for Tesla, and Tesla didn’t know about him until one of his tweets about his FSD experience went viral. Unless you think he faked images of his FSD stats for months and Tesla went along with it, I’m not sure what to tell you.[1] 1. https://x.com/DavidMoss/status/2010608939751047484 https://x.com/DavidMoss/status/2010608939751047484

vel0city 6mo ago
I don't know who David Moss is, I have no reason to trust him. His tweets I can see are practically nothing but Tesla and Grok shill posts.
- ggreer 6mo ago
  Let’s say, hypothetically, that someone has gone thousands of miles on FSD without intervening. What information would need to exist to convince you of this?
  - vel0city 6mo ago
    More than a random Twitter feed and a news post from a company which is known to spread lies, that's for sure.
    - ggreer 6mo ago
      How about if a guy who wrote an article titled Five Things My Roomba Does Better Than My Tesla[1] later drove across the country without intervening?[2] Unless all three people in the car are lying, it seems like an independent example of going thousands of miles without intervening. 1. https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/40604/five-things-my-roomba-does-better-than-my-tesla https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/40604/five-things-my-roomba... 2. https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-tesla-actually-drove-itself-from-los-angeles-to-new-york-exclusive https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-tesla-actually-drove-itself-...
      - vel0city 6mo ago
        > Both are deeply knowledgeable about Tesla’s Full-Self Driving suite and Roy stressed that he couldn’t have completed the trip without them. Totally fully self driving even though you need not one, not two, but three autonomous driving experts with you. And be sure to have a second car with you when your first autonomous vehicle strands you. Sure sounds like a reliable system ready for the masses to use on public roadways!
        ggreer 6mo ago
        I think you misread the article. The stranding was because they left a place without one of the passengers and had to go back to get him. It had nothing to do with autonomous driving. I’m not sure what help the autonomous driving experts added beyond recommending cleaning the cameras at each stop. None of them work for Tesla, and it’s not like they could tweak the software along the way. I’m not making any claims about FSD’s safety or how ready it is for mass usage on public roads. I am trying to figure out what information would convince you that someone has used FSD for thousands of miles without intervening. Does this count or not? If not, why?
        vel0city 6mo ago
        > I am trying to figure out what information would convince you that someone has used FSD for thousands of miles without intervening. I never doubted it, I just said I don't trust things Tesla states on their website (they're objectively known to lie, especially when it comes to videos about their self driving) and I don't trust randos on Twitter. I will say though, the people in the article have a vested interest in pushing a pro-AV agenda. But in the end, sure, I guess they probably did have that trip they say they did. It doesn't surprise me people managed to go thousands of miles without disengaging especially since it sounds like this isn't their first time trying (flip a coin enough and you'll possibly get heads several times in a row after all) and that's nearly all highway miles. I've personally driven many shots on a non-Tesla well over 150 miles hands-free without any disengagements on a system that attempts less than what Tesla does. The only disengagements for most of those drives were to exit the highway to charge. You pick a route that has easy to get to chargers, you don't venture off the highways much, sure sounds possible to me. In the end though I don't personally see it as that radical of a difference on a road trip. On a nearly 300mi drive I probably directly operated the car like 5 of those miles total. Is risking people's lives at the surface street parts with beta software worth that last little bit? Note, that's several thousand miles of no disengagements on a long, pre-planned cross country drive. Not 10,000 miles of driving around in a city and having all the other randomness of life peppered in. So what are we really measuring here? I'm sure we could get it to 500,000mi or more on a closed course if we wanted to. Although, after saying that, they still haven't on the Las Vegas Loop, so...maybe not? And people act like this is delivering what Elon promised about cross-country autonomous driving. But it's not. They still needed the driver there in the car, paying attention the whole way. They still needed to charge it themselves. So we're a decade late and we still don't actually have what was promised.
  - ImPostingOnHN 6mo ago
    The verified, raw data of at least 1,000 other people's worth of data, so the data has a chance of being statistically significant, rather than 1 random dude out of billions posting on the car company CEO's website (on which said CEO is infamous for moderating content to suit his views and ego).
    - ggreer 6mo ago
      That’s what it will take for you to believe that someone has gone thousands of miles without intervening? I don’t think that even Waymo (which has thousands of vehicles that have gone much farther without human intervention) has met the criteria you’ve set.
      - UltraSane 6mo ago
        If one person can do this then thousands should also be able to.
        ggreer 6mo ago
        > If one person can do this then thousands should also be able to. That’s not at all true. Very few people take the time to drive thousands of miles in a short period of time and document it while never intervening for any reason (not even accidentally bumping the wheel). Anyways, I remember you. You claimed that Tesla would never remove safety drivers from their robotaxis.[1] I tried to get us to bet on this prediction but you never replied. Well, Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis, meaning your prediction that their technology is “never going to be reliable enough” was falsified within a few months. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661368
        UltraSane 6mo ago
        It is true because millions of people own Tesla's with FSD. Moreover if FSD really worked this well Tesla would be happily publishing this data at tesla.com/FSDstats . But instead Tesla is very secretive with their FSD data because it overall isn't very good. "Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis" Why doesn't Tesla has as many empty Robotaxis as Waymo has cars? Because Robotaxis aren't good enough. The entire Robotaxi rollout is a very carefully choreographed smoke and mirrors show to inflate Tesla share price. Tesla doesn't even have the permits to operate Robotaxis in California and probably never will because they are actually stricter vs Texas.
  - UltraSane 6mo ago
    cryptographically signed timestamped raw log data.

by ggreer 6mo ago

vel0city 6mo ago

I don't know who David Moss is, I have no reason to trust him. His tweets I can see are practically nothing but Tesla and Grok shill posts.

ggreer 6mo ago
Let’s say, hypothetically, that someone has gone thousands of miles on FSD without intervening. What information would need to exist to convince you of this?
- vel0city 6mo ago
  More than a random Twitter feed and a news post from a company which is known to spread lies, that's for sure.
  - ggreer 6mo ago
    How about if a guy who wrote an article titled Five Things My Roomba Does Better Than My Tesla[1] later drove across the country without intervening?[2] Unless all three people in the car are lying, it seems like an independent example of going thousands of miles without intervening. 1. https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/40604/five-things-my-roomba-does-better-than-my-tesla https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/40604/five-things-my-roomba... 2. https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-tesla-actually-drove-itself-from-los-angeles-to-new-york-exclusive https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-tesla-actually-drove-itself-...
    - vel0city 6mo ago
      > Both are deeply knowledgeable about Tesla’s Full-Self Driving suite and Roy stressed that he couldn’t have completed the trip without them. Totally fully self driving even though you need not one, not two, but three autonomous driving experts with you. And be sure to have a second car with you when your first autonomous vehicle strands you. Sure sounds like a reliable system ready for the masses to use on public roadways!
      - ggreer 6mo ago
        I think you misread the article. The stranding was because they left a place without one of the passengers and had to go back to get him. It had nothing to do with autonomous driving. I’m not sure what help the autonomous driving experts added beyond recommending cleaning the cameras at each stop. None of them work for Tesla, and it’s not like they could tweak the software along the way. I’m not making any claims about FSD’s safety or how ready it is for mass usage on public roads. I am trying to figure out what information would convince you that someone has used FSD for thousands of miles without intervening. Does this count or not? If not, why?
        vel0city 6mo ago
        > I am trying to figure out what information would convince you that someone has used FSD for thousands of miles without intervening. I never doubted it, I just said I don't trust things Tesla states on their website (they're objectively known to lie, especially when it comes to videos about their self driving) and I don't trust randos on Twitter. I will say though, the people in the article have a vested interest in pushing a pro-AV agenda. But in the end, sure, I guess they probably did have that trip they say they did. It doesn't surprise me people managed to go thousands of miles without disengaging especially since it sounds like this isn't their first time trying (flip a coin enough and you'll possibly get heads several times in a row after all) and that's nearly all highway miles. I've personally driven many shots on a non-Tesla well over 150 miles hands-free without any disengagements on a system that attempts less than what Tesla does. The only disengagements for most of those drives were to exit the highway to charge. You pick a route that has easy to get to chargers, you don't venture off the highways much, sure sounds possible to me. In the end though I don't personally see it as that radical of a difference on a road trip. On a nearly 300mi drive I probably directly operated the car like 5 of those miles total. Is risking people's lives at the surface street parts with beta software worth that last little bit? Note, that's several thousand miles of no disengagements on a long, pre-planned cross country drive. Not 10,000 miles of driving around in a city and having all the other randomness of life peppered in. So what are we really measuring here? I'm sure we could get it to 500,000mi or more on a closed course if we wanted to. Although, after saying that, they still haven't on the Las Vegas Loop, so...maybe not? And people act like this is delivering what Elon promised about cross-country autonomous driving. But it's not. They still needed the driver there in the car, paying attention the whole way. They still needed to charge it themselves. So we're a decade late and we still don't actually have what was promised.
- ImPostingOnHN 6mo ago
  The verified, raw data of at least 1,000 other people's worth of data, so the data has a chance of being statistically significant, rather than 1 random dude out of billions posting on the car company CEO's website (on which said CEO is infamous for moderating content to suit his views and ego).
  - ggreer 6mo ago
    That’s what it will take for you to believe that someone has gone thousands of miles without intervening? I don’t think that even Waymo (which has thousands of vehicles that have gone much farther without human intervention) has met the criteria you’ve set.
    - UltraSane 6mo ago
      If one person can do this then thousands should also be able to.
      - ggreer 6mo ago
        > If one person can do this then thousands should also be able to. That’s not at all true. Very few people take the time to drive thousands of miles in a short period of time and document it while never intervening for any reason (not even accidentally bumping the wheel). Anyways, I remember you. You claimed that Tesla would never remove safety drivers from their robotaxis.[1] I tried to get us to bet on this prediction but you never replied. Well, Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis, meaning your prediction that their technology is “never going to be reliable enough” was falsified within a few months. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661368
        UltraSane 6mo ago
        It is true because millions of people own Tesla's with FSD. Moreover if FSD really worked this well Tesla would be happily publishing this data at tesla.com/FSDstats . But instead Tesla is very secretive with their FSD data because it overall isn't very good. "Tesla has removed safety drivers from some of their robotaxis" Why doesn't Tesla has as many empty Robotaxis as Waymo has cars? Because Robotaxis aren't good enough. The entire Robotaxi rollout is a very carefully choreographed smoke and mirrors show to inflate Tesla share price. Tesla doesn't even have the permits to operate Robotaxis in California and probably never will because they are actually stricter vs Texas.
- UltraSane 6mo ago
  cryptographically signed timestamped raw log data.