5 ms·

Florida is doing something similarly horrible.

by gte910h 14y ago

pc86 14y ago
I think it would be more horrible to expect everyone to get 85 regardless of whether they're starting at 82 or 52.
- gte910h 14y ago
  If you're talking about building standards off of individual students past behavior, I'm listening. Creating tranches by how brown kids are is stupid if not racist.
  - jwoah12 14y ago
    It's most definitely both of those things.
- ori_b 14y ago
  I think it would be a good idea to expect everyone to learn the material and be evaluated on their ability. If someone does a better job, they should get a better grade. If people find it hard to do understand the material, the solution isn't to let them scrape by with less understanding. That's doing the students a disservice. Instead, we should be investigating why the students are doing poorly, and at least attempting to fix the root causes. Bring people up to the desired standards, don't drop the standards. I think it's horrible to think that just because someone started off behind, they're too incompetent to produce the same quality of work as another student that started off with an advantage.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "I think it's horrible to think that just because someone started off behind, they're too incompetent to produce the same quality of work as another student that started off with an advantage." People who start off behind tend to not spontaneously catch up. And yes, it is horrible. "incompetent" is a bit of a loaded term to describe their current levels of understanding, however.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    Instead, we should be investigating why the students are doing poorly, and at least attempting to fix the root causes. Unless those root causes are strongly correlated with skin color, apparently.
    - ori_b 14y ago
      What? I'm saying that dropping standards doesn't solve anything. Relabeled incompetence is still incompetence. If solving whatever is keeping these students behind has something to do with race, so be it. Let's address the racial issues. But dropping standards on black/latino/... students is just a way of saying "We don't think you blacks are able to perform at the same level as asians, so we'll give you a free pass. After all, we can't expect too much from you." Yes, actually educating children is hard. Giving them the help they need to perform well isn't a walk in the park. But isn't it worthwhile?
      - anigbrowl 14y ago
        They're not dropping standards as far as I can see. They're setting goals for relative improvement. If blue people average 40% on tests and green people average 60%, and after a year those scores have increased to 50% and 70%, respectively, one group has seen a 25% improvement and the other a ~17% improvement. Yes, actually educating children is hard. But isn't it worthwhile? Of course it's worthwhile. What are you trying to say, that I don't want to educate them? If we posit only a single standard for k-12, what happens when some children fail to reach it is that the educators and parents end up in mutual recrimination. We've tried the one-size-fits-all approach for years and it doesn't work that well in practice.
        ori_b 14y ago
        The article said that the passing rates were scaled by race. This is a horrible idea.
        anigbrowl 14y ago
        It would be, if all kids were mythical blank slates of equal ability. But all the evidence is that they're not; they carry in a lot of economic and cultural baggage. To quote the superintendent of public instruction, 'So why do we have these different subgroups? Because we're starting with black children where they are. We can't start them at the 82 percentile because they're not there.' It'd be nice to say that a 100% pass rate is the only acceptable outcome, but the reality is that you can't achieve that in the short term. So you can either a) label everyone who falls short a failure from the outset, or b) set realistic goals for different groups, allocate resources accordingly, and aim to reduce the gap every year until the passing rates for different groups converge to less than a single standard deviation. It doesn't matter whether you're looking at scores or passing rates. Your objective is year-on-year improvement. I think this is both more honest and more desirable than declaring educational institutions to be 'failing schools' and tarnishing the reputation of everyone who works or attends those schools.

Florida is doing something similarly horrible.

by gte910h 14y ago

Florida is doing something similarly horrible.

pc86 14y ago

I think it would be more horrible to expect everyone to get 85 regardless of whether they're starting at 82 or 52.

gte910h 14y ago
If you're talking about building standards off of individual students past behavior, I'm listening. Creating tranches by how brown kids are is stupid if not racist.
- jwoah12 14y ago
  It's most definitely both of those things.
ori_b 14y ago
I think it would be a good idea to expect everyone to learn the material and be evaluated on their ability. If someone does a better job, they should get a better grade. If people find it hard to do understand the material, the solution isn't to let them scrape by with less understanding. That's doing the students a disservice. Instead, we should be investigating why the students are doing poorly, and at least attempting to fix the root causes. Bring people up to the desired standards, don't drop the standards. I think it's horrible to think that just because someone started off behind, they're too incompetent to produce the same quality of work as another student that started off with an advantage.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "I think it's horrible to think that just because someone started off behind, they're too incompetent to produce the same quality of work as another student that started off with an advantage." People who start off behind tend to not spontaneously catch up. And yes, it is horrible. "incompetent" is a bit of a loaded term to describe their current levels of understanding, however.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  Instead, we should be investigating why the students are doing poorly, and at least attempting to fix the root causes. Unless those root causes are strongly correlated with skin color, apparently.
  - ori_b 14y ago
    What? I'm saying that dropping standards doesn't solve anything. Relabeled incompetence is still incompetence. If solving whatever is keeping these students behind has something to do with race, so be it. Let's address the racial issues. But dropping standards on black/latino/... students is just a way of saying "We don't think you blacks are able to perform at the same level as asians, so we'll give you a free pass. After all, we can't expect too much from you." Yes, actually educating children is hard. Giving them the help they need to perform well isn't a walk in the park. But isn't it worthwhile?
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      They're not dropping standards as far as I can see. They're setting goals for relative improvement. If blue people average 40% on tests and green people average 60%, and after a year those scores have increased to 50% and 70%, respectively, one group has seen a 25% improvement and the other a ~17% improvement. Yes, actually educating children is hard. But isn't it worthwhile? Of course it's worthwhile. What are you trying to say, that I don't want to educate them? If we posit only a single standard for k-12, what happens when some children fail to reach it is that the educators and parents end up in mutual recrimination. We've tried the one-size-fits-all approach for years and it doesn't work that well in practice.
      - ori_b 14y ago
        The article said that the passing rates were scaled by race. This is a horrible idea.
        anigbrowl 14y ago
        It would be, if all kids were mythical blank slates of equal ability. But all the evidence is that they're not; they carry in a lot of economic and cultural baggage. To quote the superintendent of public instruction, 'So why do we have these different subgroups? Because we're starting with black children where they are. We can't start them at the 82 percentile because they're not there.' It'd be nice to say that a 100% pass rate is the only acceptable outcome, but the reality is that you can't achieve that in the short term. So you can either a) label everyone who falls short a failure from the outset, or b) set realistic goals for different groups, allocate resources accordingly, and aim to reduce the gap every year until the passing rates for different groups converge to less than a single standard deviation. It doesn't matter whether you're looking at scores or passing rates. Your objective is year-on-year improvement. I think this is both more honest and more desirable than declaring educational institutions to be 'failing schools' and tarnishing the reputation of everyone who works or attends those schools.