3 ms·

Don't or can't. My assumption is the model no longer actually thinks in tokens, but in internal tensors. This is advantageous because it doesn't have to collap

Don't or can't. My assumption is the model no longer actually thinks in tokens, but in internal tensors. This is advantageous because it doesn't have to collapse the decision and can simultaneously propogate many concepts per context position.

haellsigh 6mo ago
If that's true, then we're following the timeline of https://ai-2027.com/ https://ai-2027.com/
- matltc 6mo ago
  Care to expound on that? Maybe a reference to the relevant section?
  - 9991 6mo ago
    You should just read the thing, whether or not you believe it, to have an informed opinion on the ongoing debate.
    - matltc 6mo ago
      I did read it a while back. Was curious what parent was referring to specifically
      - 9991 6mo ago
        March 2027 -> Neuralese recurrence and memory > For example, perhaps models will be trained to think in artificial languages that are more efficient than natural language but difficult for humans to interpret.
  - ACCount37 6mo ago
    Ctrl-F "neuralese" on that page.
- 9991 6mo ago
  That's not supposed to happen til 2027. Ruh roh.
- literalAardvark 6mo ago
  Only if you ignore context and just ctrl-f in the timeline. What are you, Haiku? But yeah, in many ways we're at least a year ahead on that timeline.
- butlike 6mo ago
  Hilariously, I clicked back a bunch and got a client side error. We have a long way to go. I wouldn't worry about it.
- magicalist 6mo ago
  > If that's true, then we're following the timeline Literally just a citation of Meta's Coconut paper[1]. Notice the 2027 folk's contribution to the prediction is that this will have been implemented by "thousands of Agent-2 automated researchers...making major algorithmic advances". So, considering that the discussion of latent space reasoning dates back to 2022[2] through CoT unfaithfulness, looped transformers, using diffusion for refining latent space thoughts, etc, etc, all published before ai 2027, it seems like to be "following the timeline of ai-2027" we'd actually need to verify that not only was this happening, but that it was implemented by major algorithmic advances made by thousands of automated researchers, otherwise they don't seem to have made a contribution here. [1] https://ai-2027.com/#:~:text=Figure%20from%20Hao%20et%20al.%2C%20a%202024%20paper%20from%20Meta%20implementing%20this%20idea. https://ai-2027.com/#:~:text=Figure%20from%20Hao%20et%20al.%... [2] https://arxiv.org/html/2412.06769v3#S2 https://arxiv.org/html/2412.06769v3#S2
alex7o 6mo ago
Most likely, would be cool yes see a open source Nivel use diffusion for thinking.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
WhitneyLand 6mo ago
No, there is research in that direction and it shows some promise but that’s not what’s happening here.
- XenophileJKO 6mo ago
  Are you sure? It would be great to get official/semi-official validation that thinking is or is not resolved to a token embedding value in the context.
  - astrange 6mo ago
    You can read the model cards. Claude thinks in regular text, but the summarizer is to hide its tool use and other things (web searches, coding).
ainch 6mo ago
I would expect to see a significant wall clock improvement if that was the case - Meta's Coconut paper was ~3x faster than tokenspace chain-of-thought because latents contain a lot more information than individual tokens. Separately, I think Anthropic are probably the least likely of the big 3 to release a model that uses latent-space reasoning, because it's a clear step down in the ability to audit CoT. There has even been some discussion that they accidentally "exposed" the Mythos CoT to RL [0] - I don't see how you would apply a reward function to latent space reasoning tokens. [0]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K8FxfK9GmJfiAhgcT/anthropic-repeatedly-accidentally-trained-against-the-cot https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K8FxfK9GmJfiAhgcT/anthropic-...
- clbrmbr 6mo ago
  There’s also a paper [0] from many well known researchers that serves as a kind of informal agreement not to make the CoT unmonitorable via RL or neuralese. I also don’t think Anthropic researchers would break this “contract”. [0] https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.11473 https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.11473
motoboi 6mo ago
Don't. thinking right now is just text. Chain of though, but just regular tokens and text being output by the model.
JoshuaDavid 6mo ago
Don't. The first 500 or so tokens are raw thinking output, then the summarizer kicks in for longer thinking traces. Sometimes longer thinking traces leak through, or the summarizer model (i.e. Claude Haiku) refuses to summarize them and includes a direct quote of the passage which it won't summarize. Summarizer prompt can be viewed [here](https://xcancel.com/lilyofashwood/status/2027812323910353105?s=20 https://xcancel.com/lilyofashwood/status/2027812323910353105...), among other places.

haellsigh 6mo ago

If that's true, then we're following the timeline of https://ai-2027.com/ https://ai-2027.com/

matltc 6mo ago
Care to expound on that? Maybe a reference to the relevant section?
- 9991 6mo ago
  You should just read the thing, whether or not you believe it, to have an informed opinion on the ongoing debate.
  - matltc 6mo ago
    I did read it a while back. Was curious what parent was referring to specifically
    - 9991 6mo ago
      March 2027 -> Neuralese recurrence and memory > For example, perhaps models will be trained to think in artificial languages that are more efficient than natural language but difficult for humans to interpret.
- ACCount37 6mo ago
  Ctrl-F "neuralese" on that page.
9991 6mo ago
That's not supposed to happen til 2027. Ruh roh.
literalAardvark 6mo ago
Only if you ignore context and just ctrl-f in the timeline. What are you, Haiku? But yeah, in many ways we're at least a year ahead on that timeline.
butlike 6mo ago
Hilariously, I clicked back a bunch and got a client side error. We have a long way to go. I wouldn't worry about it.
magicalist 6mo ago
> If that's true, then we're following the timeline Literally just a citation of Meta's Coconut paper[1]. Notice the 2027 folk's contribution to the prediction is that this will have been implemented by "thousands of Agent-2 automated researchers...making major algorithmic advances". So, considering that the discussion of latent space reasoning dates back to 2022[2] through CoT unfaithfulness, looped transformers, using diffusion for refining latent space thoughts, etc, etc, all published before ai 2027, it seems like to be "following the timeline of ai-2027" we'd actually need to verify that not only was this happening, but that it was implemented by major algorithmic advances made by thousands of automated researchers, otherwise they don't seem to have made a contribution here. [1] https://ai-2027.com/#:~:text=Figure%20from%20Hao%20et%20al.%2C%20a%202024%20paper%20from%20Meta%20implementing%20this%20idea. https://ai-2027.com/#:~:text=Figure%20from%20Hao%20et%20al.%... [2] https://arxiv.org/html/2412.06769v3#S2 https://arxiv.org/html/2412.06769v3#S2

alex7o 6mo ago

Most likely, would be cool yes see a open source Nivel use diffusion for thinking.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

WhitneyLand 6mo ago

No, there is research in that direction and it shows some promise but that’s not what’s happening here.

XenophileJKO 6mo ago
Are you sure? It would be great to get official/semi-official validation that thinking is or is not resolved to a token embedding value in the context.
- astrange 6mo ago
  You can read the model cards. Claude thinks in regular text, but the summarizer is to hide its tool use and other things (web searches, coding).

ainch 6mo ago

I would expect to see a significant wall clock improvement if that was the case - Meta's Coconut paper was ~3x faster than tokenspace chain-of-thought because latents contain a lot more information than individual tokens. Separately, I think Anthropic are probably the least likely of the big 3 to release a model that uses latent-space reasoning, because it's a clear step down in the ability to audit CoT. There has even been some discussion that they accidentally "exposed" the Mythos CoT to RL [0] - I don't see how you would apply a reward function to latent space reasoning tokens. [0]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K8FxfK9GmJfiAhgcT/anthropic-repeatedly-accidentally-trained-against-the-cot https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K8FxfK9GmJfiAhgcT/anthropic-...

clbrmbr 6mo ago
There’s also a paper [0] from many well known researchers that serves as a kind of informal agreement not to make the CoT unmonitorable via RL or neuralese. I also don’t think Anthropic researchers would break this “contract”. [0] https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.11473 https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.11473

motoboi 6mo ago

Don't. thinking right now is just text. Chain of though, but just regular tokens and text being output by the model.

JoshuaDavid 6mo ago

Don't. The first 500 or so tokens are raw thinking output, then the summarizer kicks in for longer thinking traces. Sometimes longer thinking traces leak through, or the summarizer model (i.e. Claude Haiku) refuses to summarize them and includes a direct quote of the passage which it won't summarize. Summarizer prompt can be viewed [here](https://xcancel.com/lilyofashwood/status/2027812323910353105?s=20 https://xcancel.com/lilyofashwood/status/2027812323910353105...), among other places.