7 ms·

The fact that it is 2012 and stores still refuse to just let you give them money and then have them ship you a product is ridiculous. I don't want to sit here a

by gergles 14y ago

The fact that it is 2012 and stores still refuse to just let you give them money and then have them ship you a product is ridiculous. I don't want to sit here and wait for a store to open or for things to come 'back in stock' to buy a phone. That's why we invented computers, to automate boring tasks. I give you money, you put my name on a list, as phones come in, you ship them in the order of the names on the list. Problem solved. Of course, that won't happen any time soon, because being sold out inexplicably generates buzz like the present article.

paulgb 14y ago
This is nice in theory. I think this doesn't happen because when you take people's money they're suddenly your "customers" and think they're entitled to a phone ASAP and if there are any unexpected delays you have upset the hoard. As soon as you take someone's money, they're a customer support liability.
- etaty 14y ago
  Some business charge customers only when the product is shipped.
  - martin_bech 14y ago
    In Denmark thats the law. Its illegal to charge the customer, if you haven't shipped the product.
- bduerst 14y ago
  Pretty much. If you're running a brick and mortar store, you want to serve the customers who are there now. That means not cannibalizing your inventory by mailing to someone who ordered last week. You also want people to come back to your store. It is irrational for the store to mail you one when it comes in stock, though they should have a web-based corporate distributor that they can direct you to.
- thechut 14y ago
  This! Google just recently saw this happen with the Nexus 7 this summer. People were charged when they preordered and then the lack of a hard ship date caused Google to have to spend countless hours in customer support. Once somebody has paid you, the can of worms is open. They could also want to control the amount of unearned revenue on their books.
  - wmf 14y ago
    The concept of "we charge your card when the product ships" was invented how many years ago? It sounds like Google is retrofitting physical products into a store that was never meant to handle them.
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      Even if they only take a hold to ensure the funds are on the card, many (most?) banks won't tell you that the money wasn't charged yet, and they'll make it unavailable.
      - kamjam 14y ago
        Then why don't they just charge the card before they ship... and if that fails then they send you an email saying so, amend your details within 48 hours or it ships to the next person in line. Not exactly difficult.
        Klinky 14y ago
        ...and if they semi-randomly charge someone over their credit limit or overdraft their bank account, or someone forgets entirely that they signed up and submits a chargeback?
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Holds usually only last for a week, tops.
      - mgkimsal 14y ago
- gutnor 14y ago
  It does not seem to cause any problem to Amazon, Apple, or the vast majority of other shops out there. The biggest shop debit your card when they ship and let you cancel at any time. Google is crafting buzz like Apple is doing with the queues at the Apple store or their irritating "reserve your iPhone" that in reality does not reserve anything. A difference though, if you don't want to bother, you can simply order online and it get it delivered the old boring way once it is back in stock. The Nexus can only be bought online. (disclaimer: a bit bitter after having tried to buy a Nexus 4 today)
  - backprojection 14y ago
    On the other hand, why not just wait a week 'till all the fervor is over. If you're cool-headed enough to realize this is all to build buzz, then surely you can wait a week.
    - ryanhuff 14y ago
      That would be fine if Google made an announcement that they expect to take orders again in n weeks.
    - taligent 14y ago
      Your assumption is that Google is doing this to build buzz. They could just as well have component supply problems.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
aggronn 14y ago
Consumers usually have an expectation of quick turnaround, and when they don't have a quick turnaround, they expect good feedback about when to expect what they paid for to be delivered to them. In light of that, no, we don't really have the technology to automate all of those business decisions (especially so early in the product lifespan) and give a precise prediction about when a consumer can expect the product with acceptable reliability. There are too many factors that can delay delivery by a day or two, and accuracy within a day is extremely important for good customer service. For a mass-market phone like this "It'll get there when it gets there!' is not an acceptable response to people who need a phone right now, or in the very near future. This isn't a raspberry pi. There's no use pretending that high tech supply chain management is a simple process, and any hickups are really just ploys for media hype.
- Lewisham 14y ago
  You make it sound like Amazon is put through the ringer for estimates like "2-3 weeks" or even "when more are available.". They aren't. I think the most people are not upset they sold out, but upset that: a) Many of them did put in the effort to get up (or stay up) and get there in time, and had to suffer checkout issues. b) There is no Plan B, nor any other information coming out of Google. They are forced to go round the merry-go-round of refreshing the Play Store and waiting and waiting to see something change. Most people just want to say "I want this, take my money when you can" and forget about it. It shouldn't take so much effort to give a company your money.
yock 14y ago
I completely agree, but is it possible that Google and/or LG have contracts with their partners that they may not create obligations to more than a certain amount of product at one time? Might these products sell out because, contractually, they cannot sell beyond a certain deficit of materials?
mikegioia 14y ago
I still don't understand why they don't take pre-orders. Even if it's just a "pledge" and not a transfer of money it would serve the double purpose of demand-sizing and wait-listing.
- duck 14y ago
  On a small scale that could work, but I don't think it would work well at something like consumer smartphones. They could look "bad" twice: 1) if they don't get enough pledges and 2) not being able to fulfill pledges because of too much demand.
  - taligent 14y ago
    What are you talking about ? Apple allowed pre-orders for the iPhone.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
There are laws in the US which require you to ship a product within a certain time or offer a refund. I agree that the 'sold out' buzz is a popular marketing technique, its one of the persuasion tools that works well, scarcity, but I think that is a side effect here. So take a moment and imagine you are in the product manager's shoes at Google and you're tasked with forecasting how many Nexus 4's will be needed. If you guess 'high' you end up with HP's Touchpad fiasco, or Motorola's Xoom, too much product. Since you've probably borrowed the money to buy the parts to build the stuff and you have to pay it in 90 days, you need to get stuff, sell it, and then get the money to pay off the money you borrowed. Building a million phones like this probably costs in the neighborhood of $200M - $250M. That is a pretty sizable chunk of cash to be hanging out there 'in the float' as it were. Sloshing around that much capital is like driving a fully loaded big rig truck on a wet highway, you don't want to enter any turn with too much speed, the 'bad' outcome is really bad. So of the two options, "leaving money on the table" because someone who wanted to buy your gear couldn't, and "missing your wall street guidance" because you're carrying inventory for longer than you wanted, the former is the much better choice. At the limit its horrible but if you're going to err, and your error bars are large, you want to err on the negative side not the positive side. On the negative side you just don't make as much money as you might have wanted to, on the positive side you don't make the margins you need to make on the product.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  Xoom and Touchpad were 'new' products (new to that brand) - Nexus isn't 'new' by any stretch. It's got a track record. They have customers they can survey. Hell, it's google - if they can't predict public and customer sentiment and willingness to buy, who can?
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    I was there for the first Nexus launch, that kind of experience can make you a bit more conservative. :-)
  - zmonkeyz 14y ago
    But now they have a lot of people bitching about how the phone doesn't have LTE so it's not like it was known it'd be a total slam dunk. I'm a T-Mobile customer in the US though so i don't worry about stuff like that. ;)
Osmium 14y ago
> I give you money, you put my name on a list, as phones come in, you ship them in the order of the names on the list. Problem solved. This is open to abuse; if something's that heavily in demand, fake buyers will put their names down en masse and then resell them elsewhere and make a profit while honest consumers lose out.
- Mindless2112 14y ago
  And they can't do that with the limited-stock/item-sold-out system?
akiselev 14y ago
Computers may be able to automate the task of charging for a product but they can't automate away the realities of manufacturing, especially if the initial demand was beyond Google's predictions or supply chain. Even right now I bet Google is scrambling to find enough chip vendors for another production run of the phones as well as trying to scramble up the transportation and labor for putting them together.
twelvechairs 14y ago
Im sure the PR machines are involved too. "iPhone sells out" always hits the headlines (online and otherwise) in a big way, stoking demand (if it's sold out it must be good - and if I get one faster than everyone else I'll be able to show it off) Put it this way - I'm sure it won't remain "sold out" (inaccessible to purchase) for long...
- dotBen 14y ago
  Yes, I don't believe there are physically no more Nexus 4's left to be sold. It's a PR/Marketing ploy, a good one and if I was in Google's shoes it's exactly what I would be doing too. Anyone who thinks this is Google's coders not able to take a credit card and put you on a wait-list isn't thinking outside the box.
malandrew 14y ago
I wish the media instead started spinning the notion of selling out as negative. This headline could have also read "Google fails to forecast demand for Nexus 4. Runs out of stock"
- jusben1369 14y ago
  Yeah. I'm not sure they'd ever go that far. After all, it's always better to be understocked than overstocked. Sold out after 24 to 48 hours may represent unprecedented demand. After 50 minutes it's kind of mindless marketing manipulation.
dredmorbius 14y ago
At many stores you can. "Sorry, that's not in stock right now, but we can order it for you". Especially bookstores, what few record stores still exist, some clothing stores, hardware stores, and more. This is actually my preferred form of shopping. I don't care for online purchases generally, shipping and returns are a hassle (you have to be there for it, there's always the question of refunds getting properly processed, and there is simply no online presentation which is as comprehensive as having the product in your hands to assess its qualities). For electronics, which are readily produced, it's a real sham if you aren't able to do this.
vijayr 14y ago
Well, it is actually almost 2013 :P On a serious note, I think this is more of a marketing gimmick than a tech issue. Also like having very limited quantities and proclaiming "we're sold out". Not saying that is the case here though.
- plaguuuuuu 14y ago
  I think so too. AFAIK Google's computing infrastructure is such that if performance issues arise on anything critical enough they just can shove more and more servers and bandwidth into the mix and expand capacity elastically Plus it's amazing marketing to be "selling out" of your product.
creativityland 14y ago
Yep... and HN loves Google Buzz. Oh wait.
fusiongyro 14y ago
I bought my iPhone through AT&T this way. It took a month to show up. There are usually avenues to do this, but people apparently would rather gamble on a phone today than have a sure thing in a month.

by gergles 14y ago

paulgb 14y ago

This is nice in theory. I think this doesn't happen because when you take people's money they're suddenly your "customers" and think they're entitled to a phone ASAP and if there are any unexpected delays you have upset the hoard. As soon as you take someone's money, they're a customer support liability.

etaty 14y ago
Some business charge customers only when the product is shipped.
- martin_bech 14y ago
  In Denmark thats the law. Its illegal to charge the customer, if you haven't shipped the product.
bduerst 14y ago
Pretty much. If you're running a brick and mortar store, you want to serve the customers who are there now. That means not cannibalizing your inventory by mailing to someone who ordered last week. You also want people to come back to your store. It is irrational for the store to mail you one when it comes in stock, though they should have a web-based corporate distributor that they can direct you to.
thechut 14y ago
This! Google just recently saw this happen with the Nexus 7 this summer. People were charged when they preordered and then the lack of a hard ship date caused Google to have to spend countless hours in customer support. Once somebody has paid you, the can of worms is open. They could also want to control the amount of unearned revenue on their books.
- wmf 14y ago
  The concept of "we charge your card when the product ships" was invented how many years ago? It sounds like Google is retrofitting physical products into a store that was never meant to handle them.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    Even if they only take a hold to ensure the funds are on the card, many (most?) banks won't tell you that the money wasn't charged yet, and they'll make it unavailable.
    - kamjam 14y ago
      Then why don't they just charge the card before they ship... and if that fails then they send you an email saying so, amend your details within 48 hours or it ships to the next person in line. Not exactly difficult.
      - Klinky 14y ago
        ...and if they semi-randomly charge someone over their credit limit or overdraft their bank account, or someone forgets entirely that they signed up and submits a chargeback?
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Holds usually only last for a week, tops.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
gutnor 14y ago
It does not seem to cause any problem to Amazon, Apple, or the vast majority of other shops out there. The biggest shop debit your card when they ship and let you cancel at any time. Google is crafting buzz like Apple is doing with the queues at the Apple store or their irritating "reserve your iPhone" that in reality does not reserve anything. A difference though, if you don't want to bother, you can simply order online and it get it delivered the old boring way once it is back in stock. The Nexus can only be bought online. (disclaimer: a bit bitter after having tried to buy a Nexus 4 today)
- backprojection 14y ago
  On the other hand, why not just wait a week 'till all the fervor is over. If you're cool-headed enough to realize this is all to build buzz, then surely you can wait a week.
  - ryanhuff 14y ago
    That would be fine if Google made an announcement that they expect to take orders again in n weeks.
  - taligent 14y ago
    Your assumption is that Google is doing this to build buzz. They could just as well have component supply problems.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

aggronn 14y ago

Consumers usually have an expectation of quick turnaround, and when they don't have a quick turnaround, they expect good feedback about when to expect what they paid for to be delivered to them. In light of that, no, we don't really have the technology to automate all of those business decisions (especially so early in the product lifespan) and give a precise prediction about when a consumer can expect the product with acceptable reliability. There are too many factors that can delay delivery by a day or two, and accuracy within a day is extremely important for good customer service. For a mass-market phone like this "It'll get there when it gets there!' is not an acceptable response to people who need a phone right now, or in the very near future. This isn't a raspberry pi. There's no use pretending that high tech supply chain management is a simple process, and any hickups are really just ploys for media hype.

Lewisham 14y ago
You make it sound like Amazon is put through the ringer for estimates like "2-3 weeks" or even "when more are available.". They aren't. I think the most people are not upset they sold out, but upset that: a) Many of them did put in the effort to get up (or stay up) and get there in time, and had to suffer checkout issues. b) There is no Plan B, nor any other information coming out of Google. They are forced to go round the merry-go-round of refreshing the Play Store and waiting and waiting to see something change. Most people just want to say "I want this, take my money when you can" and forget about it. It shouldn't take so much effort to give a company your money.

yock 14y ago

I completely agree, but is it possible that Google and/or LG have contracts with their partners that they may not create obligations to more than a certain amount of product at one time? Might these products sell out because, contractually, they cannot sell beyond a certain deficit of materials?

mikegioia 14y ago

I still don't understand why they don't take pre-orders. Even if it's just a "pledge" and not a transfer of money it would serve the double purpose of demand-sizing and wait-listing.

duck 14y ago
On a small scale that could work, but I don't think it would work well at something like consumer smartphones. They could look "bad" twice: 1) if they don't get enough pledges and 2) not being able to fulfill pledges because of too much demand.
- taligent 14y ago
  What are you talking about ? Apple allowed pre-orders for the iPhone.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

There are laws in the US which require you to ship a product within a certain time or offer a refund. I agree that the 'sold out' buzz is a popular marketing technique, its one of the persuasion tools that works well, scarcity, but I think that is a side effect here. So take a moment and imagine you are in the product manager's shoes at Google and you're tasked with forecasting how many Nexus 4's will be needed. If you guess 'high' you end up with HP's Touchpad fiasco, or Motorola's Xoom, too much product. Since you've probably borrowed the money to buy the parts to build the stuff and you have to pay it in 90 days, you need to get stuff, sell it, and then get the money to pay off the money you borrowed. Building a million phones like this probably costs in the neighborhood of $200M - $250M. That is a pretty sizable chunk of cash to be hanging out there 'in the float' as it were. Sloshing around that much capital is like driving a fully loaded big rig truck on a wet highway, you don't want to enter any turn with too much speed, the 'bad' outcome is really bad. So of the two options, "leaving money on the table" because someone who wanted to buy your gear couldn't, and "missing your wall street guidance" because you're carrying inventory for longer than you wanted, the former is the much better choice. At the limit its horrible but if you're going to err, and your error bars are large, you want to err on the negative side not the positive side. On the negative side you just don't make as much money as you might have wanted to, on the positive side you don't make the margins you need to make on the product.

mgkimsal 14y ago
Xoom and Touchpad were 'new' products (new to that brand) - Nexus isn't 'new' by any stretch. It's got a track record. They have customers they can survey. Hell, it's google - if they can't predict public and customer sentiment and willingness to buy, who can?
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  I was there for the first Nexus launch, that kind of experience can make you a bit more conservative. :-)
- zmonkeyz 14y ago
  But now they have a lot of people bitching about how the phone doesn't have LTE so it's not like it was known it'd be a total slam dunk. I'm a T-Mobile customer in the US though so i don't worry about stuff like that. ;)

Osmium 14y ago

> I give you money, you put my name on a list, as phones come in, you ship them in the order of the names on the list. Problem solved. This is open to abuse; if something's that heavily in demand, fake buyers will put their names down en masse and then resell them elsewhere and make a profit while honest consumers lose out.

Mindless2112 14y ago
And they can't do that with the limited-stock/item-sold-out system?

akiselev 14y ago

Computers may be able to automate the task of charging for a product but they can't automate away the realities of manufacturing, especially if the initial demand was beyond Google's predictions or supply chain. Even right now I bet Google is scrambling to find enough chip vendors for another production run of the phones as well as trying to scramble up the transportation and labor for putting them together.

twelvechairs 14y ago

Im sure the PR machines are involved too. "iPhone sells out" always hits the headlines (online and otherwise) in a big way, stoking demand (if it's sold out it must be good - and if I get one faster than everyone else I'll be able to show it off) Put it this way - I'm sure it won't remain "sold out" (inaccessible to purchase) for long...

dotBen 14y ago
Yes, I don't believe there are physically no more Nexus 4's left to be sold. It's a PR/Marketing ploy, a good one and if I was in Google's shoes it's exactly what I would be doing too. Anyone who thinks this is Google's coders not able to take a credit card and put you on a wait-list isn't thinking outside the box.

malandrew 14y ago

I wish the media instead started spinning the notion of selling out as negative. This headline could have also read "Google fails to forecast demand for Nexus 4. Runs out of stock"

jusben1369 14y ago
Yeah. I'm not sure they'd ever go that far. After all, it's always better to be understocked than overstocked. Sold out after 24 to 48 hours may represent unprecedented demand. After 50 minutes it's kind of mindless marketing manipulation.

dredmorbius 14y ago

At many stores you can. "Sorry, that's not in stock right now, but we can order it for you". Especially bookstores, what few record stores still exist, some clothing stores, hardware stores, and more. This is actually my preferred form of shopping. I don't care for online purchases generally, shipping and returns are a hassle (you have to be there for it, there's always the question of refunds getting properly processed, and there is simply no online presentation which is as comprehensive as having the product in your hands to assess its qualities). For electronics, which are readily produced, it's a real sham if you aren't able to do this.

vijayr 14y ago

Well, it is actually almost 2013 :P On a serious note, I think this is more of a marketing gimmick than a tech issue. Also like having very limited quantities and proclaiming "we're sold out". Not saying that is the case here though.

plaguuuuuu 14y ago
I think so too. AFAIK Google's computing infrastructure is such that if performance issues arise on anything critical enough they just can shove more and more servers and bandwidth into the mix and expand capacity elastically Plus it's amazing marketing to be "selling out" of your product.

creativityland 14y ago

Yep... and HN loves Google Buzz. Oh wait.

fusiongyro 14y ago

I bought my iPhone through AT&T this way. It took a month to show up. There are usually avenues to do this, but people apparently would rather gamble on a phone today than have a sure thing in a month.