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Was going to say there’s a good reason lots of people use services like mailchimp now. You’re not sensibly managing it yourself with the current (very sensible)

Was going to say there’s a good reason lots of people use services like mailchimp now. You’re not sensibly managing it yourself with the current (very sensible) regulations in the US / EU, nor do you want to be sending from your own domain en masse.

cpncrunch 6mo ago
Mailchimp and other legitimate services (other than salesforce, which is best just blocked) don't permit spam, whereas gmail and outlook don't give a fuck unless the spammer gets a large amount of abuse reports. Certainly mailchimp and the like make things simpler, but the price can be quite high.
- jstanley 6mo ago
  This seems to be a laughable claim? I don't get anything but spam from Mailchimp.
  - cpncrunch 6mo ago
    No, it's valid for me, and I just verified. In spam filter for past month: 0 mailchimp. In valid emails: 6 emails from a service that I signed up for via mailchimp. Checking my received emails for mailchimp I see a whole bunch of legitimate emails, including for flightschedulepro which uses it. I also see replies to my abuse reports to mailchimp saying the problems have been addressed. Do you report any of these spams to mailchimp?
  - TeMPOraL 6mo ago
    Indeed, Mailchimp is a tool specifically built and advertised to send spam.
    - cpncrunch 6mo ago
      Where does it say on their website that it is specifically for sending spam?
      - tuetuopay 6mo ago
        Someone’s marketing emails are someone else’s spam. Mailchimp is specifically made for mass email emission, for marketing a newsletter and whatnot. So yeah, a lot of people will consider them spammers.
        cpncrunch 6mo ago
        Spam is defined as unsolicited bulk email. Marketing is only spam when it isn't previous customers, or people who have specifically opted in.
        rascul 6mo ago
        100% of marketing email I've received is spam. I didn't knowingly or willingly sign up for any of it. There's some delusion in the marketing world that just because someone places an order or creates an account they should be spammed.
        cpncrunch 6mo ago
        Yes, I used to agree with that, but have since given in and accepted that most companies (except mine and a handful of others) will spam all customers who buy a product without asking them first. It's a little irritating, although I reserve full enmity for the spammers who I've never interacted with ever.
        ImPostingOnHN 6mo ago
        > Marketing is only spam when it isn't previous customers, or people who have specifically opted in. Yes, this excludes any people, customers or otherwise, who did not knowingly and willingly opt-in to specifically receive marketing emails / promotional emails / any other unnecessary emails. A good heuristic is: if somebody receives an email from you that they do not want, there's a good chance you're spamming them: maybe by calling a marketing email, an "update" instead; maybe because you didn't make it abundantly clear to them when they opted-in that they would receive emails of that type.
        6mo ago
    - smallerize 6mo ago
      Mailchimp is for sending emails that people signed up to receive. If enough recipients click "unsubscribe", the whole email campaign gets suspended.
      - TeMPOraL 6mo ago
        Signed up, or were signed up without their knowledge, or were tricked into signing up.
      - john_strinlai 6mo ago
        >Mailchimp is for sending emails that people signed up to receive. that might be what it is for in a theoretical sense. but that is not how it is being used.
  - rjmunro 6mo ago
    I don't think your definition of spam matches the one that I understand it to mean. Spam is random email from someone you have not had contact with before firing messages to every address they can find anywhere on the web, the dark web, etc. Or if you ask not to be added to a mailing list and are added anyway. They often use fraudulent tricks to try to get the email through filters, such as fake from addresses. Spam is not email from legitimate companies with valid contact details that have an opt out that you forgot to click when you signed up with them. That's legitimate marketing emails. You might argue they also shouldn't exist, but they are a different category. I get plenty of the second from mailchimp (it's what they do), almost none of the first. Marking the second kind as spam, rather than clicking the unsubscribe link is dangerous because it teaches your anti-spam filter to reject messages from legitimate companies. You might find that if they need to contact you for a genuine reason e.g. a reciept for a future transaction, the message is blocked.
    - fhars 6mo ago
      > an opt out that you forgot to click when you signed up with them This is the textbook legal definition of spam in any sensible jurisdiction, though.
    - nucleardog 6mo ago
      > I don't think your definition of spam matches the one that I understand it to mean. Spam is random email from someone you have not had contact with before firing messages to every address they can find anywhere on the web, the dark web, etc. Or if you ask not to be added to a mailing list and are added anyway. I don't get _only_ this from Mailchimp, but I definitely get quite a bit of this from Mailchimp, Sendgrid, and others. I've marked it spam, reported it to them (no response), and continued to receive the emails. I can be kind of scatter brained and generally give the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes it's pretty clear that, e.g., I most definitely did not sign up with some accountant in a different country, in a place I've never been to, to receive reminders of tax deadlines that don't apply to me and offers of accounting services I can't use. Or if I somehow did, the signup was deceptive enough that they never received meaningful consent and I'd call it spam anyway. (And the email they're sending this to is not some easily confused gmail address or a fat finger--it's my own name at my own domain.) Having valid contact details or an opt out on their sign up form isn't relevant given I never signed up. It's _unsolicited_, _bulk_ email. It's spam.

cpncrunch 6mo ago

Mailchimp and other legitimate services (other than salesforce, which is best just blocked) don't permit spam, whereas gmail and outlook don't give a fuck unless the spammer gets a large amount of abuse reports. Certainly mailchimp and the like make things simpler, but the price can be quite high.

jstanley 6mo ago
This seems to be a laughable claim? I don't get anything but spam from Mailchimp.
- cpncrunch 6mo ago
  No, it's valid for me, and I just verified. In spam filter for past month: 0 mailchimp. In valid emails: 6 emails from a service that I signed up for via mailchimp. Checking my received emails for mailchimp I see a whole bunch of legitimate emails, including for flightschedulepro which uses it. I also see replies to my abuse reports to mailchimp saying the problems have been addressed. Do you report any of these spams to mailchimp?
- TeMPOraL 6mo ago
  Indeed, Mailchimp is a tool specifically built and advertised to send spam.
  - cpncrunch 6mo ago
    Where does it say on their website that it is specifically for sending spam?
    - tuetuopay 6mo ago
      Someone’s marketing emails are someone else’s spam. Mailchimp is specifically made for mass email emission, for marketing a newsletter and whatnot. So yeah, a lot of people will consider them spammers.
      - cpncrunch 6mo ago
        Spam is defined as unsolicited bulk email. Marketing is only spam when it isn't previous customers, or people who have specifically opted in.
        rascul 6mo ago
        100% of marketing email I've received is spam. I didn't knowingly or willingly sign up for any of it. There's some delusion in the marketing world that just because someone places an order or creates an account they should be spammed.
        cpncrunch 6mo ago
        Yes, I used to agree with that, but have since given in and accepted that most companies (except mine and a handful of others) will spam all customers who buy a product without asking them first. It's a little irritating, although I reserve full enmity for the spammers who I've never interacted with ever.
        ImPostingOnHN 6mo ago
        > Marketing is only spam when it isn't previous customers, or people who have specifically opted in. Yes, this excludes any people, customers or otherwise, who did not knowingly and willingly opt-in to specifically receive marketing emails / promotional emails / any other unnecessary emails. A good heuristic is: if somebody receives an email from you that they do not want, there's a good chance you're spamming them: maybe by calling a marketing email, an "update" instead; maybe because you didn't make it abundantly clear to them when they opted-in that they would receive emails of that type.
      - 6mo ago
  - smallerize 6mo ago
    Mailchimp is for sending emails that people signed up to receive. If enough recipients click "unsubscribe", the whole email campaign gets suspended.
    - TeMPOraL 6mo ago
      Signed up, or were signed up without their knowledge, or were tricked into signing up.
    - john_strinlai 6mo ago
      >Mailchimp is for sending emails that people signed up to receive. that might be what it is for in a theoretical sense. but that is not how it is being used.
- rjmunro 6mo ago
  I don't think your definition of spam matches the one that I understand it to mean. Spam is random email from someone you have not had contact with before firing messages to every address they can find anywhere on the web, the dark web, etc. Or if you ask not to be added to a mailing list and are added anyway. They often use fraudulent tricks to try to get the email through filters, such as fake from addresses. Spam is not email from legitimate companies with valid contact details that have an opt out that you forgot to click when you signed up with them. That's legitimate marketing emails. You might argue they also shouldn't exist, but they are a different category. I get plenty of the second from mailchimp (it's what they do), almost none of the first. Marking the second kind as spam, rather than clicking the unsubscribe link is dangerous because it teaches your anti-spam filter to reject messages from legitimate companies. You might find that if they need to contact you for a genuine reason e.g. a reciept for a future transaction, the message is blocked.
  - fhars 6mo ago
    > an opt out that you forgot to click when you signed up with them This is the textbook legal definition of spam in any sensible jurisdiction, though.
  - nucleardog 6mo ago
    > I don't think your definition of spam matches the one that I understand it to mean. Spam is random email from someone you have not had contact with before firing messages to every address they can find anywhere on the web, the dark web, etc. Or if you ask not to be added to a mailing list and are added anyway. I don't get _only_ this from Mailchimp, but I definitely get quite a bit of this from Mailchimp, Sendgrid, and others. I've marked it spam, reported it to them (no response), and continued to receive the emails. I can be kind of scatter brained and generally give the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes it's pretty clear that, e.g., I most definitely did not sign up with some accountant in a different country, in a place I've never been to, to receive reminders of tax deadlines that don't apply to me and offers of accounting services I can't use. Or if I somehow did, the signup was deceptive enough that they never received meaningful consent and I'd call it spam anyway. (And the email they're sending this to is not some easily confused gmail address or a fat finger--it's my own name at my own domain.) Having valid contact details or an opt out on their sign up form isn't relevant given I never signed up. It's _unsolicited_, _bulk_ email. It's spam.