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Here’s a video of what this guy was involved in (to my best knowledge): https://statements.cornell.edu/2024/20241019-career-fair-disruption-video.cfm https://s

by junofan 6mo ago

Here’s a video of what this guy was involved in (to my best knowledge): https://statements.cornell.edu/2024/20241019-career-fair-disruption-video.cfm https://statements.cornell.edu/2024/20241019-career-fair-dis... I’m a First Amendment absolutist and AFAIK foreign students can protest, but this video shows to me it probably crosses the line into something else. Exactly what, I have no opinion.

sojournerc 6mo ago
Yeah, masks and intentionally antagonizing police doesn't scream peaceful protest
- Terr_ 6mo ago
  It sounds like you're trying to shift the legal goalposts of "peaceful" into something more like "inoffensive" or "respectful" or "polite". For example, you have a First Amendment right to "peacefully" hurl the most awful insults you can think of at a police officer. If that police officer feels "antagonized"--or even if your goal was to hurt their feelings--that does not permit them to abuse the special power of their workplace to attack you. If they try anyway, now that's a real crime.
  - Terr_ 6mo ago
    P.S.: Supposing you went beyond rude, like violating a noise-ordinance with a megaphone, or "littering" with pamphlets, or trespassing to chain yourself to a tree... The First Amendment bars authorities from going: "Ah hah! Now I can sneak in some punches for that shit you said earlier!" No, that's simply not allowed to be part of it. There is no crime where "saying stuff that pissed the policeman off" is an enhancing factor. It's difficult, but that's why we pay them the big bucks for a job that's safer than landscaping or bartending or delivering food. In practice this abuse of authority occurs because we live in an imperfect world... But it's still evil, and we shouldn't accept it or endorse it.
    - herewulf 6mo ago
      While the rest of your comment is sound, the police do not make "big bucks" by any stretch of the imagination and there's a serious citation needed for the job being less dangerous than the ones you listed. I am pretty sure I have never read multiple news articles like "landscaper shot while sitting in vehicle filling paperwork" or "armed man commits suicide by bartender". I have numerous friends and acquaintances in this career field. Policing is a dangerous job, just not for everyone all the time on the whole. The barrier to entry is low and highly competitive but the selection process is a suboptimal filter. The pay isn't great compared to so many other things, but it's similar to the military in that qualified people show up and get trained to do the job which leads to an entire career, just without all the big downsides of military life. All these things combined is why bad apples can get into positions of authority and commit abuses.
      - GetTheFacts 6mo ago
        >Policing is a dangerous job, just not for everyone all the time on the whole Actually, it doesn't even make the top 25[0]. So no, not really all that dangerous. Being around police, especially with a high melanin content is definitely more dangerous than being police. To channel George Carlin: "It's not that I don't like the police, I just feel better when they're not around." [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/03/02/most-dangerous-jobs-america-database/11264064002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/03/02/most-dangero...
      - ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
        Policing is not a particularly dangerous job, police are people with fragile egos. Cops are violent towards their intimate partners at a rate many many many times typical. Something like 25-40% of cops are abusers. Sources: Johnson, L.B. (1991). On the front lines: Police stress and family well-being. Hearing before the Select Committee on Children, Youth, and Families House of Representatives: 102 Congress First Session May 20 (p. 32-48). Washington DC: US Government Printing Office. Neidig, P.H., Russell, H.E. & Seng, A.F. (1992). Interspousal aggression in law enforcement families: A preliminary investigation. Police Studies, Vol. 15 (1), p. 30-38. Feltgen, J. (October, 1996). Domestic violence: When the abuser is a police officer. The Police Chief, p. 42-49. Lott, L.D. (November, 1995). Deadly secrets: Violence in the police family. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, p. 12-16. Oehme, K., et al. (2011). Protecting Lives, Careers, and Public Confidence: Florida's efforts to prevent officer-involved domestic violence. Family Court Review 84, 85.
  - valianteffort 6mo ago
    [dead]
- intended 6mo ago
  The irony is rich - since we are in a topic that discusses the governments actions against people who showed up at protests.
- catlifeonmars 6mo ago
  That’s peaceful. What do you expect, politeness?
- chimprich 6mo ago
  > Yeah, masks and intentionally antagonizing police doesn't scream peaceful protest They wear masks in case their political opponents take exception to their actions and hunt them down later and hurt their families. (This seems like an extremely dubious justification to me, but I've been told on HN that this is the reason that ICE wear masks, so why wouldn't it apply here...?)
  - Jiro 6mo ago
    They wear masks to make it more difficult to arrest them (something which doesn't really apply to ICE).
intended 6mo ago
The video shows them get past security / push past security, then protest / disrupt the career fair. Your framing had me expecting a degree of mayhem and violence that was absent here.
- JuniperMesos 6mo ago
  The police would've been justified in arresting everyone present the second they broke through the door with the explicit intent of disrupting the career fair. This is exactly the kind of mayhem and violence that the police exist in order to deter; if the police were unwilling or unable to arrest the protesters, the event organizers should have done so.
  - intended 6mo ago
    They pushed past the police cordon, nothing was broken physically / no property damage was caused. The link itself describes it as a disruption of the career fair.
    - ap99 6mo ago
      If this person was on a visa, this is enough of an excuse to start looking at the fine print to see how I can get this person's visa revoked.
      - intended 6mo ago
        But that is not what is happening, and they have stated that they were at the event for a short period of time, quite possibly at the portion that didn’t occur inside the event. The willingness to assume one version of events, and then go down that path to award consequences, is premature.
  - herewulf 6mo ago
    Yeah! Just like at the United States Capitol.
michh 6mo ago
Okay, but is being present at a protest where others push through a barrier enough for the first amendment to no longer apply or do we know he was one of the people doing the barrier breaking? The original post implies he bailed out after only 5 minutes - quite possibly because he wasn't on board with the (relatively mild) escalation. At this point, we don't know. But if he did cross that line, he should be criminally prosecuted like the students with American citizenship (if they even are...) and not presumed guilty being punished via the immigration system without any kind of trial.
- AtlasBarfed 6mo ago
  Can we charge all Jan 6ers with the murder or manslaughter of the congressional security police officers? There's the case of the getaway driver in a bank robbery that resulted in murder also getting murder, and that is basically what the two poster up is advocating for.

by junofan 6mo ago

sojournerc 6mo ago

Yeah, masks and intentionally antagonizing police doesn't scream peaceful protest

Terr_ 6mo ago
It sounds like you're trying to shift the legal goalposts of "peaceful" into something more like "inoffensive" or "respectful" or "polite". For example, you have a First Amendment right to "peacefully" hurl the most awful insults you can think of at a police officer. If that police officer feels "antagonized"--or even if your goal was to hurt their feelings--that does not permit them to abuse the special power of their workplace to attack you. If they try anyway, now that's a real crime.
- Terr_ 6mo ago
  P.S.: Supposing you went beyond rude, like violating a noise-ordinance with a megaphone, or "littering" with pamphlets, or trespassing to chain yourself to a tree... The First Amendment bars authorities from going: "Ah hah! Now I can sneak in some punches for that shit you said earlier!" No, that's simply not allowed to be part of it. There is no crime where "saying stuff that pissed the policeman off" is an enhancing factor. It's difficult, but that's why we pay them the big bucks for a job that's safer than landscaping or bartending or delivering food. In practice this abuse of authority occurs because we live in an imperfect world... But it's still evil, and we shouldn't accept it or endorse it.
  - herewulf 6mo ago
    While the rest of your comment is sound, the police do not make "big bucks" by any stretch of the imagination and there's a serious citation needed for the job being less dangerous than the ones you listed. I am pretty sure I have never read multiple news articles like "landscaper shot while sitting in vehicle filling paperwork" or "armed man commits suicide by bartender". I have numerous friends and acquaintances in this career field. Policing is a dangerous job, just not for everyone all the time on the whole. The barrier to entry is low and highly competitive but the selection process is a suboptimal filter. The pay isn't great compared to so many other things, but it's similar to the military in that qualified people show up and get trained to do the job which leads to an entire career, just without all the big downsides of military life. All these things combined is why bad apples can get into positions of authority and commit abuses.
    - GetTheFacts 6mo ago
      >Policing is a dangerous job, just not for everyone all the time on the whole Actually, it doesn't even make the top 25[0]. So no, not really all that dangerous. Being around police, especially with a high melanin content is definitely more dangerous than being police. To channel George Carlin: "It's not that I don't like the police, I just feel better when they're not around." [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/03/02/most-dangerous-jobs-america-database/11264064002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/03/02/most-dangero...
    - ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
      Policing is not a particularly dangerous job, police are people with fragile egos. Cops are violent towards their intimate partners at a rate many many many times typical. Something like 25-40% of cops are abusers. Sources: Johnson, L.B. (1991). On the front lines: Police stress and family well-being. Hearing before the Select Committee on Children, Youth, and Families House of Representatives: 102 Congress First Session May 20 (p. 32-48). Washington DC: US Government Printing Office. Neidig, P.H., Russell, H.E. & Seng, A.F. (1992). Interspousal aggression in law enforcement families: A preliminary investigation. Police Studies, Vol. 15 (1), p. 30-38. Feltgen, J. (October, 1996). Domestic violence: When the abuser is a police officer. The Police Chief, p. 42-49. Lott, L.D. (November, 1995). Deadly secrets: Violence in the police family. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, p. 12-16. Oehme, K., et al. (2011). Protecting Lives, Careers, and Public Confidence: Florida's efforts to prevent officer-involved domestic violence. Family Court Review 84, 85.
- valianteffort 6mo ago
  [dead]
intended 6mo ago
The irony is rich - since we are in a topic that discusses the governments actions against people who showed up at protests.
catlifeonmars 6mo ago
That’s peaceful. What do you expect, politeness?
chimprich 6mo ago
> Yeah, masks and intentionally antagonizing police doesn't scream peaceful protest They wear masks in case their political opponents take exception to their actions and hunt them down later and hurt their families. (This seems like an extremely dubious justification to me, but I've been told on HN that this is the reason that ICE wear masks, so why wouldn't it apply here...?)
- Jiro 6mo ago
  They wear masks to make it more difficult to arrest them (something which doesn't really apply to ICE).

intended 6mo ago

The video shows them get past security / push past security, then protest / disrupt the career fair. Your framing had me expecting a degree of mayhem and violence that was absent here.

JuniperMesos 6mo ago
The police would've been justified in arresting everyone present the second they broke through the door with the explicit intent of disrupting the career fair. This is exactly the kind of mayhem and violence that the police exist in order to deter; if the police were unwilling or unable to arrest the protesters, the event organizers should have done so.
- intended 6mo ago
  They pushed past the police cordon, nothing was broken physically / no property damage was caused. The link itself describes it as a disruption of the career fair.
  - ap99 6mo ago
    If this person was on a visa, this is enough of an excuse to start looking at the fine print to see how I can get this person's visa revoked.
    - intended 6mo ago
      But that is not what is happening, and they have stated that they were at the event for a short period of time, quite possibly at the portion that didn’t occur inside the event. The willingness to assume one version of events, and then go down that path to award consequences, is premature.
- herewulf 6mo ago
  Yeah! Just like at the United States Capitol.

michh 6mo ago

Okay, but is being present at a protest where others push through a barrier enough for the first amendment to no longer apply or do we know he was one of the people doing the barrier breaking? The original post implies he bailed out after only 5 minutes - quite possibly because he wasn't on board with the (relatively mild) escalation. At this point, we don't know. But if he did cross that line, he should be criminally prosecuted like the students with American citizenship (if they even are...) and not presumed guilty being punished via the immigration system without any kind of trial.

AtlasBarfed 6mo ago
Can we charge all Jan 6ers with the murder or manslaughter of the congressional security police officers? There's the case of the getaway driver in a bank robbery that resulted in murder also getting murder, and that is basically what the two poster up is advocating for.