4 ms·

weird everyone's focusing on privacy and google.... Not the actual insanity of a government targeting people who are legally allowed to be in the US. You can

by keithnz 6mo ago

weird everyone's focusing on privacy and google.... Not the actual insanity of a government targeting people who are legally allowed to be in the US. You can try to find a way to keep things private, and many of the people on HN likely have the capability to do so. But hiding from your government because they are weaponizing your information against you seems to be the wrong approach. I just don't understand the American people just rolling over and letting their country / rights / freedoms just be obliterated.

lmm 6mo ago
Was it a right he had in the first place? Many countries make it illegal for foreigners to undertake political activities as a condition of their visa, for good reason.
- keithnz 6mo ago
  the problem is, technically yes, they have a right, but their visa can be arbitrarily cancelled for very unspecified reasons, like the government not liking what you are doing and calling a potential security risk. This targeting of people, because they can, amazes me that Americans are so accepting of it. To me this says they'd do this to their citizens if they could. You already have the attack on birth right citizenship to try and take away protections so they can target more people. This targeting on political grounds is nuts. It's so anti American but somehow so many are convinced that it's not a bad thing.
  - lmm 6mo ago
    IDK, I think "foreigners shouldn't be coming over here as guests and then trying to influence our politics" is a reasonable stance, and doesn't say anything about targeting citizens.
    - lukeschlather 6mo ago
      If that were a uniform stance, maybe, but when it's used for partisan reasons by the party in power it's a different story. That's also not the law, the law is that anyone in the country has the right to free speech. If rights only apply to citizens it is a mockery of the freedoms this country is built on.
      - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        comelycomb 6mo ago
        When did Obama create a masked gestapo that kills innocent civilians? Oh right. Never. Both siding with trump makes you look like a bot troll or worse.
        SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        As per the numbers, Obama is listed as deporting 5 million, and even gave Tom Homan a medal for his work.
        xethos 6mo ago
        I'd say the difference with the deportations under Obama (aside from deporting more people while spending less money doing it) is that he followed the law when doing so
        scarecrowbob 6mo ago
        As a person who spent a couple of hours watching our local ICE facility today, I'd say the differences are purely aesthetic. I've gotten to where I don't really care -what- the law is and believe that from an ethical standpoint if a person can have a house and a job and not cause trouble I don't care if they are from Honduras or Houston- any position other than that is just racism with extra steps. And I am aware that probably sounds crazy to most folks here but at this point I don't care. The folks I organize with have been working since before Trump and will likely be working still when the Democrats put whatever stuff suit their leadership selects.
    - keithnz 6mo ago
      weird, don't you think that stance is just fear of free speech? I see it as completely unreasonable. America (of the past now?) has a history of inviting all kinds of people to discuss politics, philosophy, religion from all over the world.... but now you are scared of what people have to say? Also if you don't recognize that it is political targeting (not of citizens, but anyone by any means the government has its disposal), then that's a real problem. We can see the targeting of legitimate visitors, attacks on birth right citizenship, attempts to reconstruct electoral borders. Mass firing from the government institutions of people with differing opinions. Like I said, it's weird americans are so accepting.... "seems reasonable".
      - lmm 6mo ago
        > weird, don't you think that stance is just fear of free speech? I see it as completely unreasonable. America (of the past now?) has a history of inviting all kinds of people to discuss politics, philosophy, religion from all over the world.... but now you are scared of what people have to say? I think active political campaigning is a bit different from discussing political philosophy, and it's a major mistake to treat the former as "just free speech". (I think Citizens United was a massive misjudgement that has lead directly to many of our present-day problems). I think we're all agreed that foreigners should not be standing for office or voting in elections, and foreigners other than permanent residents are already barred from making campaign contributions; to my mind this kind of protest aimed at changing government policy falls into the same category. A protest like that isn't an effort to convey some insight or argument; it's an effort to demonstrate viscerally that the citizenry have a strong view on an issue. I don't think allowing foreign participation helps with that; quite the opposite. There have been a lot of claims in recent years - from both sides of the aisle - that enemy countries have been deliberately disrupting US politics in order to harm the country. I think it's vital that our political process not only has integrity but is seen to have integrity, and part of that is ensuring that adversaries cannot unduly influence it.
        ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
        > I think we're all agreed that foreigners should not be standing for office or voting in elections I don't think we're all in agreement. Do they live here? Work here? They should have a say in Joe here is governed while they do.
    - myaccountonhn 6mo ago
      "Influencing our politics" is broad, but I do think foreigners should be allowed to organize strikes, or go to political rallies without risk of being deported.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6mo ago
    The Swiss have birthright citizenship. What's so odd about it ?
  - ap99 6mo ago
    I'm amazed that people see America as different from any other country in terms of who should be allowed in and what constitutes bad behavior. Being in America is a privilege that can easily be taken away. Guests of America should walk a narrow path. Same as being in any other country.
    - Ray20 6mo ago
      [flagged]
- whats_a_quasar 6mo ago
  Yes, the First Amendment applies to all people within the territory of the United States equally. US law does not limit the political speech of non-citizens present on visas.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
    Do you feel that way about the second amendment too? Just curious if we’re picking and choosing what visitors can legally do. What if SCOTUS said that people means citizens and not visitors for guns, don’t you think that would apply to visa, immigrants, or visitors as well?
    - keithnz 6mo ago
      I think in the second amendment "the people" are quite clearly the citizens so they can secure their own "free" state. Where the first amendment is about limiting what the government can do so they can't make laws against free speech.
      - SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        How odd that one amendment away the word “people” has two different meanings.
        keithnz 6mo ago
        it doesn't. Read the first amendment carefully. People is only used in one specific part, the bulk is about limiting what the lawmakers can do. free speech has no reference to "people"
        SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        All amendments are about what limiting lawmakers can do. Even the second. People is only used in one specific part… ok? How does that square your idea of 1A with SCOTUS being very recently clear on 2A not immediately applying to non-citizens?
- csomar 6mo ago
  Was it a right that should be had, should be the question. I don't think you are refuting the parent claim. Americans are rolling over and justifying terrifying out reach from not-very-organized authorities (ICE). The American set of freedom, liberties and rights are more fragile than Trump's ego.
  - lmm 6mo ago
    > Was it a right that should be had, should be the question. Fair, but everything else I said goes through the same. > Americans are rolling over and justifying terrifying out reach I just don't see the terror? If someone is coming over here on a student visa and then doing political activism, it seems completely reasonable for the immigration authorities to check that out.
- tordrt 6mo ago
  Which countries do this for a good reason? I dont think there is a single western country that does this.
  - lmm 6mo ago
    Portugal does and they're about as westerly as non-american countries get.
BLKNSLVR 6mo ago
I find it similarly weird that a post threatening genocide remains up, whilst a post depicting Trump as Dr. Jesus was so offensive it had to be taken down and 'explained away' as something other than what it was. Only on the darkest timeline is a picture more offensive than the threat of genocide. Gives a good insight into the psyche of power in the US (and probably the psyche of power in general).
ap99 6mo ago
How is this insane? The US isn't some global free zone where everyone has a right to come and go - do as they please. If you came to the US legally with a visa. Great. When you signed your visa documents there were some questions they asked you and some fine print that basically made you liable for "bad behavior." I'm an American living in the UK and I'm under no illusion that if I start doing dumb stuff here it's possible they tell me to leave. (Tho apparently the UK government has a pretty lax attitude with who they ask to leave.) If someone wants to come to my country and behave in any way outside their best - then yes I support the government kicking them out.
- Pay08 6mo ago
  I don't think protests in general are "behaving outside your best". Now what those protests contain is an entirely different matter. I read an article about the arrest of a foreign student recently who attended numerous "death to America" protests. I can support deportation in a case like that (even if only for the complete lack of self awareness), but not for all protests.
- elAhmo 6mo ago
  Protesting against ethnic cleansing is a bad thing, that’s what you’re saying? No matter what kind of mental gymnastics you try to do, this is just an obvious case of a foreign government having a huge influence and control over internal US affairs.
GorbachevyChase 6mo ago
Just rolling over? What do you imagine regular people should do? The plucky underdogs with good hearts and their dreams take on the CIA, the FBI, and whatever you want to call the criminal network above them, and the good guys win? This isn’t a movie. Be smart and find a way to survive with your soul intact.

by keithnz 6mo ago

lmm 6mo ago

Was it a right he had in the first place? Many countries make it illegal for foreigners to undertake political activities as a condition of their visa, for good reason.

keithnz 6mo ago
the problem is, technically yes, they have a right, but their visa can be arbitrarily cancelled for very unspecified reasons, like the government not liking what you are doing and calling a potential security risk. This targeting of people, because they can, amazes me that Americans are so accepting of it. To me this says they'd do this to their citizens if they could. You already have the attack on birth right citizenship to try and take away protections so they can target more people. This targeting on political grounds is nuts. It's so anti American but somehow so many are convinced that it's not a bad thing.
- lmm 6mo ago
  IDK, I think "foreigners shouldn't be coming over here as guests and then trying to influence our politics" is a reasonable stance, and doesn't say anything about targeting citizens.
  - lukeschlather 6mo ago
    If that were a uniform stance, maybe, but when it's used for partisan reasons by the party in power it's a different story. That's also not the law, the law is that anyone in the country has the right to free speech. If rights only apply to citizens it is a mockery of the freedoms this country is built on.
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 6mo ago
      [flagged]
      - comelycomb 6mo ago
        When did Obama create a masked gestapo that kills innocent civilians? Oh right. Never. Both siding with trump makes you look like a bot troll or worse.
        SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        As per the numbers, Obama is listed as deporting 5 million, and even gave Tom Homan a medal for his work.
        xethos 6mo ago
        I'd say the difference with the deportations under Obama (aside from deporting more people while spending less money doing it) is that he followed the law when doing so
        scarecrowbob 6mo ago
        As a person who spent a couple of hours watching our local ICE facility today, I'd say the differences are purely aesthetic. I've gotten to where I don't really care -what- the law is and believe that from an ethical standpoint if a person can have a house and a job and not cause trouble I don't care if they are from Honduras or Houston- any position other than that is just racism with extra steps. And I am aware that probably sounds crazy to most folks here but at this point I don't care. The folks I organize with have been working since before Trump and will likely be working still when the Democrats put whatever stuff suit their leadership selects.
  - keithnz 6mo ago
    weird, don't you think that stance is just fear of free speech? I see it as completely unreasonable. America (of the past now?) has a history of inviting all kinds of people to discuss politics, philosophy, religion from all over the world.... but now you are scared of what people have to say? Also if you don't recognize that it is political targeting (not of citizens, but anyone by any means the government has its disposal), then that's a real problem. We can see the targeting of legitimate visitors, attacks on birth right citizenship, attempts to reconstruct electoral borders. Mass firing from the government institutions of people with differing opinions. Like I said, it's weird americans are so accepting.... "seems reasonable".
    - lmm 6mo ago
      > weird, don't you think that stance is just fear of free speech? I see it as completely unreasonable. America (of the past now?) has a history of inviting all kinds of people to discuss politics, philosophy, religion from all over the world.... but now you are scared of what people have to say? I think active political campaigning is a bit different from discussing political philosophy, and it's a major mistake to treat the former as "just free speech". (I think Citizens United was a massive misjudgement that has lead directly to many of our present-day problems). I think we're all agreed that foreigners should not be standing for office or voting in elections, and foreigners other than permanent residents are already barred from making campaign contributions; to my mind this kind of protest aimed at changing government policy falls into the same category. A protest like that isn't an effort to convey some insight or argument; it's an effort to demonstrate viscerally that the citizenry have a strong view on an issue. I don't think allowing foreign participation helps with that; quite the opposite. There have been a lot of claims in recent years - from both sides of the aisle - that enemy countries have been deliberately disrupting US politics in order to harm the country. I think it's vital that our political process not only has integrity but is seen to have integrity, and part of that is ensuring that adversaries cannot unduly influence it.
      - ahhhhnoooo 6mo ago
        > I think we're all agreed that foreigners should not be standing for office or voting in elections I don't think we're all in agreement. Do they live here? Work here? They should have a say in Joe here is governed while they do.
  - myaccountonhn 6mo ago
    "Influencing our politics" is broad, but I do think foreigners should be allowed to organize strikes, or go to political rallies without risk of being deported.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6mo ago
  The Swiss have birthright citizenship. What's so odd about it ?
- ap99 6mo ago
  I'm amazed that people see America as different from any other country in terms of who should be allowed in and what constitutes bad behavior. Being in America is a privilege that can easily be taken away. Guests of America should walk a narrow path. Same as being in any other country.
  - Ray20 6mo ago
    [flagged]
whats_a_quasar 6mo ago
Yes, the First Amendment applies to all people within the territory of the United States equally. US law does not limit the political speech of non-citizens present on visas.
- SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
  Do you feel that way about the second amendment too? Just curious if we’re picking and choosing what visitors can legally do. What if SCOTUS said that people means citizens and not visitors for guns, don’t you think that would apply to visa, immigrants, or visitors as well?
  - keithnz 6mo ago
    I think in the second amendment "the people" are quite clearly the citizens so they can secure their own "free" state. Where the first amendment is about limiting what the government can do so they can't make laws against free speech.
    - SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
      How odd that one amendment away the word “people” has two different meanings.
      - keithnz 6mo ago
        it doesn't. Read the first amendment carefully. People is only used in one specific part, the bulk is about limiting what the lawmakers can do. free speech has no reference to "people"
        SV_BubbleTime 6mo ago
        All amendments are about what limiting lawmakers can do. Even the second. People is only used in one specific part… ok? How does that square your idea of 1A with SCOTUS being very recently clear on 2A not immediately applying to non-citizens?
csomar 6mo ago
Was it a right that should be had, should be the question. I don't think you are refuting the parent claim. Americans are rolling over and justifying terrifying out reach from not-very-organized authorities (ICE). The American set of freedom, liberties and rights are more fragile than Trump's ego.
- lmm 6mo ago
  > Was it a right that should be had, should be the question. Fair, but everything else I said goes through the same. > Americans are rolling over and justifying terrifying out reach I just don't see the terror? If someone is coming over here on a student visa and then doing political activism, it seems completely reasonable for the immigration authorities to check that out.
tordrt 6mo ago
Which countries do this for a good reason? I dont think there is a single western country that does this.
- lmm 6mo ago
  Portugal does and they're about as westerly as non-american countries get.

BLKNSLVR 6mo ago

I find it similarly weird that a post threatening genocide remains up, whilst a post depicting Trump as Dr. Jesus was so offensive it had to be taken down and 'explained away' as something other than what it was. Only on the darkest timeline is a picture more offensive than the threat of genocide. Gives a good insight into the psyche of power in the US (and probably the psyche of power in general).

ap99 6mo ago

How is this insane? The US isn't some global free zone where everyone has a right to come and go - do as they please. If you came to the US legally with a visa. Great. When you signed your visa documents there were some questions they asked you and some fine print that basically made you liable for "bad behavior." I'm an American living in the UK and I'm under no illusion that if I start doing dumb stuff here it's possible they tell me to leave. (Tho apparently the UK government has a pretty lax attitude with who they ask to leave.) If someone wants to come to my country and behave in any way outside their best - then yes I support the government kicking them out.

Pay08 6mo ago
I don't think protests in general are "behaving outside your best". Now what those protests contain is an entirely different matter. I read an article about the arrest of a foreign student recently who attended numerous "death to America" protests. I can support deportation in a case like that (even if only for the complete lack of self awareness), but not for all protests.
elAhmo 6mo ago
Protesting against ethnic cleansing is a bad thing, that’s what you’re saying? No matter what kind of mental gymnastics you try to do, this is just an obvious case of a foreign government having a huge influence and control over internal US affairs.

GorbachevyChase 6mo ago

Just rolling over? What do you imagine regular people should do? The plucky underdogs with good hearts and their dreams take on the CIA, the FBI, and whatever you want to call the criminal network above them, and the good guys win? This isn’t a movie. Be smart and find a way to survive with your soul intact.