4 ms·

It's kind of ridiculous that HN and the whole startup community has a vendetta against MBAs. Seeing it as a blackmark? You are quick to judge an MBA based on th

by sritch 14y ago

It's kind of ridiculous that HN and the whole startup community has a vendetta against MBAs. Seeing it as a blackmark? You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail.

debacle 14y ago
An MBA is like an engineering masters - you're more valuable with a BS/BA and 3 years experience. After you have ~5 years of experience, that graduate degree becomes highly valuable compared to additional years of work experience. An MBA is an important step towards becoming a stronger manager for most people, however it probably shouldn't be the first step you take out of undergraduate studies.
- MattRogish 14y ago
  Absolutely. I have an MBA after being in the software industry for a while. MBA fresh out of undergrad is insane and all of the MBA programs I looked at required years of industry experience. I'd really question the value of a MBA program that lets in 22 year olds fresh out of undergrad.
  - GFischer 14y ago
    I think your point is key. I'm finishing an MBA-type program (it's a Masters in Technology Management actually, but 2/3rds of the courses are shared with the MBA), and I definitely wouldn't have gotten so much out of it 5 years ago. Similarly, many of the things I was taught as an undergrad only made sense many years later (and I regret not having given them more attention). In fact, my MBA-type program actually has an emphasis on entrepreneurship - we had an entire class based on Steve Blank's Customer Development model, which involved "getting outside the building" a lot. They encourage startup building so much, I'm planning to turn my business plan into a startup :)
fear91 14y ago
What makes you think that being a MBA equates to having business skills? Being MBA is just being MBA. People who don't get higher education and just start their companies fresh out of high-schools will have WAY more business skills than MBA. I'd say that 2 years of running your own business gives you more business skills than 5 years of MBA education.
- benbataille 14y ago
  Doubtful. In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree. It's highly unlikely you are ever going to study extensively algorithm, os and databases design, compilation or declarative and functional programming all by yourself because objectively it's not something you need to get the job done. Nevertheless, this knowledge becomes really useful as soon as you start designing complex system. Doing an MBA (or an MSc for what it's worth, MBA cult is mostly anglo-saxon) is exactly the same thing. You will study a broad range of subjects and business areas and see different theories on them. Don't misunderstand me, practical knowledge is invaluable and running your own company gives you a good understanding of your area. It's just than MBA will give you a broader if less practical view.
  - loboman 14y ago
    "In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree." Never? Despite the countless examples, including Torvalds and Carmack? I really disagree on that.
    - pdubs 14y ago
      Torvalds has a masters in CS. "Never" is a strong word, but the rest of the paragraph you're harpooning makes a different point than the one you're refuting.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        According to Wikipedia, Linux was developed around his second year in university. That would suggest that he did not have a degree during its development and had a formal education, at that time, roughly equivalent to the average university dropout. I think that still supports the parent's claim, even if it is a little misleading as written.
randomdata 14y ago
You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. People are judged by their education all the time. Why should MBAs be exempt? Though I do agree that the arbitrarily judging of someone based on what learning they have done in their life is ridiculous. Though I can't help but feel that even you have done the exact same judging: "Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail." Not having an MBA doesn't mean you do not have business skills.
- sritch 14y ago
  People look at successful dropouts and think "not having a degree MUST be the key to success". People are judged better by their lack of formal education than those having attended post-secondary.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    That's ridiculous. People are judged by what they've gotten done in the real world. Nobody says, "Oh, that guy just dropped out of college; he must be smart, so let's hire him." They don't have a bias against education. They have a bias toward experience.
MattRob 14y ago
I have no vendetta. It is simple pattern matching: I receive lots of applications every day. When nine out of ten that share one common characteristic (MBA), share another (no understanding of how they could add value in an early stage startup), you begin to connect the dots.
wpietri 14y ago
Most startups don't fail for reasons of business management and business strategy. It's also a little weird to say that we're elitists because we're not hiring the elite of the business world.

by sritch 14y ago

debacle 14y ago

An MBA is like an engineering masters - you're more valuable with a BS/BA and 3 years experience. After you have ~5 years of experience, that graduate degree becomes highly valuable compared to additional years of work experience. An MBA is an important step towards becoming a stronger manager for most people, however it probably shouldn't be the first step you take out of undergraduate studies.

MattRogish 14y ago
Absolutely. I have an MBA after being in the software industry for a while. MBA fresh out of undergrad is insane and all of the MBA programs I looked at required years of industry experience. I'd really question the value of a MBA program that lets in 22 year olds fresh out of undergrad.
- GFischer 14y ago
  I think your point is key. I'm finishing an MBA-type program (it's a Masters in Technology Management actually, but 2/3rds of the courses are shared with the MBA), and I definitely wouldn't have gotten so much out of it 5 years ago. Similarly, many of the things I was taught as an undergrad only made sense many years later (and I regret not having given them more attention). In fact, my MBA-type program actually has an emphasis on entrepreneurship - we had an entire class based on Steve Blank's Customer Development model, which involved "getting outside the building" a lot. They encourage startup building so much, I'm planning to turn my business plan into a startup :)

fear91 14y ago

What makes you think that being a MBA equates to having business skills? Being MBA is just being MBA. People who don't get higher education and just start their companies fresh out of high-schools will have WAY more business skills than MBA. I'd say that 2 years of running your own business gives you more business skills than 5 years of MBA education.

benbataille 14y ago
Doubtful. In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree. It's highly unlikely you are ever going to study extensively algorithm, os and databases design, compilation or declarative and functional programming all by yourself because objectively it's not something you need to get the job done. Nevertheless, this knowledge becomes really useful as soon as you start designing complex system. Doing an MBA (or an MSc for what it's worth, MBA cult is mostly anglo-saxon) is exactly the same thing. You will study a broad range of subjects and business areas and see different theories on them. Don't misunderstand me, practical knowledge is invaluable and running your own company gives you a good understanding of your area. It's just than MBA will give you a broader if less practical view.
- loboman 14y ago
  "In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree." Never? Despite the countless examples, including Torvalds and Carmack? I really disagree on that.
  - pdubs 14y ago
    Torvalds has a masters in CS. "Never" is a strong word, but the rest of the paragraph you're harpooning makes a different point than the one you're refuting.
    - randomdata 14y ago
      According to Wikipedia, Linux was developed around his second year in university. That would suggest that he did not have a degree during its development and had a formal education, at that time, roughly equivalent to the average university dropout. I think that still supports the parent's claim, even if it is a little misleading as written.

randomdata 14y ago

You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. People are judged by their education all the time. Why should MBAs be exempt? Though I do agree that the arbitrarily judging of someone based on what learning they have done in their life is ridiculous. Though I can't help but feel that even you have done the exact same judging: "Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail." Not having an MBA doesn't mean you do not have business skills.

sritch 14y ago
People look at successful dropouts and think "not having a degree MUST be the key to success". People are judged better by their lack of formal education than those having attended post-secondary.
- wpietri 14y ago
  That's ridiculous. People are judged by what they've gotten done in the real world. Nobody says, "Oh, that guy just dropped out of college; he must be smart, so let's hire him." They don't have a bias against education. They have a bias toward experience.

MattRob 14y ago

I have no vendetta. It is simple pattern matching: I receive lots of applications every day. When nine out of ten that share one common characteristic (MBA), share another (no understanding of how they could add value in an early stage startup), you begin to connect the dots.

wpietri 14y ago

Most startups don't fail for reasons of business management and business strategy. It's also a little weird to say that we're elitists because we're not hiring the elite of the business world.