5 ms·

It's pretty pathetic when the best argument you can make is a whataboutism that isn't even equivalent.

by wredcoll 6mo ago

smallmancontrov 6mo ago
If "led by the nose into bombing Iran" isn't being "owned by Israel," what is?
- traderj0e 6mo ago
  It totally is. Democrats got led into Israel's wars too. Interestingly the support was different, like Trump got money from the Adelsons and Biden from pro-Israel lobbies.
  - vel0city 6mo ago
    > Democrats got led into Israel's wars too. Which ones?
    - jlarocco 6mo ago
      Have people already forgot about Gaza?
      - vel0city 6mo ago
        The US was involved in Gaza? The United States was actively spending billions dropping munitions there? When? Under which administration was the US directly involved in bombing Gaza? Can you further clarify how the US was involved in the war in Gaza, and how that was the Democrats getting involved? And do you really feel that involvement was anywhere near what is happening or comparable with Iran at the moment?
        jlarocco 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        vel0city 6mo ago
        Its not US servicemembers pulling the trigger, its not US commanders deciding on targets, its not the POTUS starting the war. Pretty radically different things in my book. How many US servicemembers were injured or killed in the US's apparent major war with Gaza? We've spent ~$20B in grants for weapons procurement on Israel's behalf over several years, with a lot of that being defensive missile systems. I'm not a fan of us spending so much of our money on another country's military, especially when we hear over and over how we can't afford to feed kids or provide transportation to our people. But, we've spent over double than that so far in Iran in less than two months, and that's ignoring the many billions it'll cost to fix things that were destroyed so far. We're looking at the actual US cost of this war potentially reaching one trillion dollars. Its a scale that's so radically different. And also, one was in support of a country who we have defense agreements with who was attacked, and another was us deciding to go bomb a country seemingly unprovoked. Who is spreading whataboutism again?
        wredcoll 6mo ago
        I don't know if this is a failure of the bandwidth level of an internet forum message or a nuance thing, but like, you can both wish democrats sent less money to israel (for a whole bunch of reasons) while also acknowledging that this behaviour is preferable to the demonstrated alternative of republican presidents constantly trying to invade middle eastern countries. Like, if you want less american money (and lives) being spent bombing the middle east, the most rational approach is to vote for a democrat majority/president and then primary anyone who still tries to buy bombs or whatever. The alternative approach of letting a republican get elected is demonstrably worse.
    - traderj0e 6mo ago
      Syria, Gaza, and even Iran.
    - mcmcmc 6mo ago
      Obama's drone campaigns, although that's less a war and more just global terrorism.
traderj0e 6mo ago
Parent comment isn't a whataboutism, if anything my comment could be seen as that. My point isn't to defend Trump's actions, only to call out that this is a scarier problem than it gets credit for when someone just blames MAGA. We're dealing with a two-front assault here, and they want you to think it's just the other party you don't like.
- wredcoll 6mo ago
  My comment was trying to emphasize the parent's point, I was referring to the grandparent as whataboutism. It was a tad unclear. I wish america would stop sending money to israel, for a bunch of reasons. That desire is most likely to be realized by a strong democrat majority.
  - traderj0e 6mo ago
    We've had a Democrat majority plenty of times in the past several decades, including under Biden, and they continued the unconditional support. When congresswoman Omar called out AIPAC's influence, nearly every other Dem joined in on a written condemnation. If anything they're just less blatant than Republicans about this, also some pro-Israel groups have a niche with one party or the other.

It's pretty pathetic when the best argument you can make is a whataboutism that isn't even equivalent.

smallmancontrov 6mo ago

If "led by the nose into bombing Iran" isn't being "owned by Israel," what is?

traderj0e 6mo ago
It totally is. Democrats got led into Israel's wars too. Interestingly the support was different, like Trump got money from the Adelsons and Biden from pro-Israel lobbies.
- vel0city 6mo ago
  > Democrats got led into Israel's wars too. Which ones?
  - jlarocco 6mo ago
    Have people already forgot about Gaza?
    - vel0city 6mo ago
      The US was involved in Gaza? The United States was actively spending billions dropping munitions there? When? Under which administration was the US directly involved in bombing Gaza? Can you further clarify how the US was involved in the war in Gaza, and how that was the Democrats getting involved? And do you really feel that involvement was anywhere near what is happening or comparable with Iran at the moment?
      - jlarocco 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        vel0city 6mo ago
        Its not US servicemembers pulling the trigger, its not US commanders deciding on targets, its not the POTUS starting the war. Pretty radically different things in my book. How many US servicemembers were injured or killed in the US's apparent major war with Gaza? We've spent ~$20B in grants for weapons procurement on Israel's behalf over several years, with a lot of that being defensive missile systems. I'm not a fan of us spending so much of our money on another country's military, especially when we hear over and over how we can't afford to feed kids or provide transportation to our people. But, we've spent over double than that so far in Iran in less than two months, and that's ignoring the many billions it'll cost to fix things that were destroyed so far. We're looking at the actual US cost of this war potentially reaching one trillion dollars. Its a scale that's so radically different. And also, one was in support of a country who we have defense agreements with who was attacked, and another was us deciding to go bomb a country seemingly unprovoked. Who is spreading whataboutism again?
        wredcoll 6mo ago
        I don't know if this is a failure of the bandwidth level of an internet forum message or a nuance thing, but like, you can both wish democrats sent less money to israel (for a whole bunch of reasons) while also acknowledging that this behaviour is preferable to the demonstrated alternative of republican presidents constantly trying to invade middle eastern countries. Like, if you want less american money (and lives) being spent bombing the middle east, the most rational approach is to vote for a democrat majority/president and then primary anyone who still tries to buy bombs or whatever. The alternative approach of letting a republican get elected is demonstrably worse.
  - traderj0e 6mo ago
    Syria, Gaza, and even Iran.
  - mcmcmc 6mo ago
    Obama's drone campaigns, although that's less a war and more just global terrorism.

traderj0e 6mo ago

Parent comment isn't a whataboutism, if anything my comment could be seen as that. My point isn't to defend Trump's actions, only to call out that this is a scarier problem than it gets credit for when someone just blames MAGA. We're dealing with a two-front assault here, and they want you to think it's just the other party you don't like.

wredcoll 6mo ago
My comment was trying to emphasize the parent's point, I was referring to the grandparent as whataboutism. It was a tad unclear. I wish america would stop sending money to israel, for a bunch of reasons. That desire is most likely to be realized by a strong democrat majority.
- traderj0e 6mo ago
  We've had a Democrat majority plenty of times in the past several decades, including under Biden, and they continued the unconditional support. When congresswoman Omar called out AIPAC's influence, nearly every other Dem joined in on a written condemnation. If anything they're just less blatant than Republicans about this, also some pro-Israel groups have a niche with one party or the other.