5 ms·

Why we have never hired an MBA

68 points by MattRob 14y ago

seivan 14y ago
I've been saying this forever; "If your whole role is to come up with ideas & strategies for the product but you can’t make them happen yourself, and have a very limited understanding of how you could, you are pointless." Best product managers and/or designers are usually the engineers working, using and breathing the product.
sritch 14y ago
It's kind of ridiculous that HN and the whole startup community has a vendetta against MBAs. Seeing it as a blackmark? You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail.
- debacle 14y ago
  An MBA is like an engineering masters - you're more valuable with a BS/BA and 3 years experience. After you have ~5 years of experience, that graduate degree becomes highly valuable compared to additional years of work experience. An MBA is an important step towards becoming a stronger manager for most people, however it probably shouldn't be the first step you take out of undergraduate studies.
  - MattRogish 14y ago
    Absolutely. I have an MBA after being in the software industry for a while. MBA fresh out of undergrad is insane and all of the MBA programs I looked at required years of industry experience. I'd really question the value of a MBA program that lets in 22 year olds fresh out of undergrad.
    - GFischer 14y ago
      I think your point is key. I'm finishing an MBA-type program (it's a Masters in Technology Management actually, but 2/3rds of the courses are shared with the MBA), and I definitely wouldn't have gotten so much out of it 5 years ago. Similarly, many of the things I was taught as an undergrad only made sense many years later (and I regret not having given them more attention). In fact, my MBA-type program actually has an emphasis on entrepreneurship - we had an entire class based on Steve Blank's Customer Development model, which involved "getting outside the building" a lot. They encourage startup building so much, I'm planning to turn my business plan into a startup :)
- fear91 14y ago
  What makes you think that being a MBA equates to having business skills? Being MBA is just being MBA. People who don't get higher education and just start their companies fresh out of high-schools will have WAY more business skills than MBA. I'd say that 2 years of running your own business gives you more business skills than 5 years of MBA education.
  - benbataille 14y ago
    Doubtful. In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree. It's highly unlikely you are ever going to study extensively algorithm, os and databases design, compilation or declarative and functional programming all by yourself because objectively it's not something you need to get the job done. Nevertheless, this knowledge becomes really useful as soon as you start designing complex system. Doing an MBA (or an MSc for what it's worth, MBA cult is mostly anglo-saxon) is exactly the same thing. You will study a broad range of subjects and business areas and see different theories on them. Don't misunderstand me, practical knowledge is invaluable and running your own company gives you a good understanding of your area. It's just than MBA will give you a broader if less practical view.
    - loboman 14y ago
      "In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree." Never? Despite the countless examples, including Torvalds and Carmack? I really disagree on that.
      - pdubs 14y ago
        Torvalds has a masters in CS. "Never" is a strong word, but the rest of the paragraph you're harpooning makes a different point than the one you're refuting.
        randomdata 14y ago
        According to Wikipedia, Linux was developed around his second year in university. That would suggest that he did not have a degree during its development and had a formal education, at that time, roughly equivalent to the average university dropout. I think that still supports the parent's claim, even if it is a little misleading as written.
- randomdata 14y ago
  You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. People are judged by their education all the time. Why should MBAs be exempt? Though I do agree that the arbitrarily judging of someone based on what learning they have done in their life is ridiculous. Though I can't help but feel that even you have done the exact same judging: "Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail." Not having an MBA doesn't mean you do not have business skills.
  - sritch 14y ago
    People look at successful dropouts and think "not having a degree MUST be the key to success". People are judged better by their lack of formal education than those having attended post-secondary.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      That's ridiculous. People are judged by what they've gotten done in the real world. Nobody says, "Oh, that guy just dropped out of college; he must be smart, so let's hire him." They don't have a bias against education. They have a bias toward experience.
- MattRob 14y ago
  I have no vendetta. It is simple pattern matching: I receive lots of applications every day. When nine out of ten that share one common characteristic (MBA), share another (no understanding of how they could add value in an early stage startup), you begin to connect the dots.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Most startups don't fail for reasons of business management and business strategy. It's also a little weird to say that we're elitists because we're not hiring the elite of the business world.
anonymousy 14y ago
I had the impression that GoCardless was founded by a few ex management consultants, how come when they 'become' startup founders they start attacking their own trade? Also judging the whole population of MBAs by seeing a few over-anxiously MBA job seekers doesn't do any justice?
- MattRob 14y ago
  Absolutely. I should have made this clearer, I've added a note in the first para of the post. The intention was not to attack any trade but to highlight a worrying misconception that seems to be particularly prevalent amongst MBA grads and ex-consultants. A segment that I feel my background makes me particularly able to comment on.
  - sjg007 14y ago
    New grads in any field are kind of like this. MBAs that came from business first are probably more humble then this, or already spoken for. They do probably have some value for longer term planning or networking. But that should be in addition to raw technical talent or raw business acumen to get the current job done.
- darkarmani 14y ago
  I don't see him attacking the whole population of MBAs. > The problem is that a large proportion of MBAs ambitions seem to have moved away from entering a large corporate to becoming part of the burgeoning startup scene, and this shift has not been reflected in the course content. He's really talking about inexperienced, fresh-out-of-school MBAs.
jedberg 14y ago
I wouldn't consider someone with an MBA a black mark, but the author hits the nail on the head -- an early stage startup needs someone who can execute, not just come up with ideas. If that person with the MBA has the skills and more importantly the desire to get in an get their hands dirty executing on their own ideas, then great! But from my experience, most MBAs want to come up with the ideas and want others to execute them.
- pdubs 14y ago
  I also know of a lot of tech people with the ideas and the skills, but no idea how to successfully execute them. I'm on the tech side of things, but I've experienced what a good PM can do for a team.
- MattRob 14y ago
  It's not that I won't look at any MBA but that when I do I'm watching out for particular things. When nine out of ten apps that display a particular attribute share or lack another common attribute, that seems like a sensible response. Like you say, the key is the ability and desire to execute.
atldev 14y ago
This doesn't seem any different than the language wars that take place here. In fact, you could cherry pick anecdotes to support hate towards any demographic- age, hometown, music preferences, etc. An MBA proves nothing more than the candidate was interested in pursuing graduate level education. I'm a solo technical founder. I write code, marketing copy, and proposals. I'm a product manager. And my MBA curriculum covered areas that would be a huge help to product managers. If you auto-reject CVs with an MBA, you're missing out on a great talent pool. Perhaps you should only give "black marks" to candidates who are clueless about what it takes to manage products. But don't tie that to the MBA.
- wpietri 14y ago
  When you're looking for resumes, you're not looking to be perfectly fair. You're looking to sort wheat from chaff. For me, for example, developer certifications are a black mark. Does that mean I auto-reject people with them? No. But it is correlated with a couple of different kinds characteristics I don't want in a developer, so they lose points. But aren't there some good people with certifications? Am I not being unfair? Sure. My job isn't to be fair; it's to find a great person in minimum time.
- MattRob 14y ago
  To be clear, it's not an auto-reject, it's an early warning mechanism. I see the relationship between MBAs and cluelessness as one of correlation not causation.
  - hnriot 14y ago
    If you find a correlation between MBA and cluelessness then I would either doubt your sample size or your methods. Be very very careful in any kind of statistical fashion to allow anecdotal evidence to cloud your opinion. People who think there's a correlation with MBA's and cluelessness are themselves, just as clueless.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      He's not saying MBAs are generally clueless. He's saying that fresh MBA grads are clueless about startups, which is something they haven't been trained for.
sardonicbryan 14y ago
One of the best hires I've ever made is a classic finance MBA -- top tier investment bank analyst program out of undergrad, HBS, private equity. The key was that: 1) He was referred to my startup by someone in our network, so he had at least a basic understanding of how our company worked. 2) He offered to come in as an intern just to get his foot in the door, and was extremely humble about his value to the company; basically recognized that he wouldn't that productive at first. (We brought him in as an analyst and he made because a lead PM in about 7 months).) There is a lot to like about people with that background: extremely smart, hardworking, with hard analytical skills. If the two basic criteria from above are met (basic understanding of the business, strong desire to come in and learn), then I would strongly recommend snagging an MBA if you can.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Do you think the MBA and banking was a boost, or a five year delay in getting his career going?
  - rayiner 14y ago
    What's the big rush?
  - SkyMarshal 14y ago
    >top tier investment bank analyst program out of undergrad, HBS, private equity. Clearly a five year delay. Seriously though, let's not overanalyze here.
  - sardonicbryan 14y ago
    Personally, I don't. For one thing, his hard analytical skills (read: Excel hacker) were obviously honed by working in finance. I also feel his background gave him tons of real world, high stakes experience in using Excel to turn data into decisions, which is hard to replicate. Also, I think working a shitty ibanking job with crazy hours can make you both willing to grind and appreciative of how fun being a tech pm can be.
andrewcooke 14y ago
i imagine there's a load of cultural baggage here, but the two mbas i know did it in evenings, while raising children, and holding down jobs (that they were good at). the fact that they got theirs is a credit to their determination. more than that, i helped one of them on some module, because they knew i "knew about computers" and it turned out that they were learning how to configure firewalls (!) (in a very abstract way - the idea was to understand what a firewall was, not how iptables worked - and we got top marks for that assignment ;o). i guess it was some kind of i.t. security basics. anyway, the breadth of what they were covering surprised and impressed me.
JofArnold 14y ago
As another data point, YC's fastest ever exit was ran by an MBA.
- MattRob 14y ago
  I actually knew this. I should have mentioned it. As I said: any argument that "no MBA has a clue about startups...[is] demonstrably untrue".
retube 14y ago
urgh this guy oozes arrogance
- jh3 14y ago
  The comments in this thread are oozing the same arrogance.
  - andrewcooke 14y ago
    i'm sorry i offended you. if you can explain, please, what was so arrogant about my own post i will try to correct it in future.
    - jh3 14y ago
      Well, it was a generalization but you did not offend me. I guess I am no better than the comments that may have actually annoyed me, huh? No need to apologize to me, by the way.
comatose_kid 14y ago
Hi Matt, You just haven't found the right MBA :) Some quick background: I'm attending school part-time for my MBA (Richard Ivey, case-based). I've also been with a successful YC startup from the the ground floor as a technical hire, and am currently the co-founder of a very early stage startup. Your article raises some really good points - most of which I agree with completely. Execution is key, and becoming a PM at an early stage startup is misguided if you're not able to implement your ideas. That said, should a startup outright ignore applicants with MBAs? Like most things...it depends. The leadership, communication and (yes) strategic skills that a good MBA provides are important. Coupling these strengths with a technical background is a pretty powerful combination.
- MattRob 14y ago
  Totally agree with this
- sritch 14y ago
  A fellow Ivey! I did my HBA however.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
hack_edu 14y ago
> the fundamental rule of startups: ideas & strategies are worthless, execution is everything. Oh boy... I agree with the whole "idea-guys are hacks" thing but this phrasing is no less alarming. Don't worry about the product, we can always jut pivot!
antr 14y ago
I haven't got an MBA but many close friends do - and none of them fit Matt's views. I repeat, none. Having an MBA is not a black and white scenario, and that same "profile" can apply to anyone with no MBA. Still, let the facts do the talking, founders/executers with MBAs: - Chris Dixon (Hunch, among others) - Jeff Skoll (eBay) - Trip Hawkins (Electronic Arts) - Vinod Khosla, Scott McNealy(Sun Microsystems) - Gery Kremen (Match.com) - Alexandra Wilson and Alexis Maybank (Gilt Groupe) - Jeff Fluhr (Stubhub) - Miriam Naficy (Minted, Eve.com) - Victoria Ransom and Alain Chuard (Wildfire) - Mike Cassidy (Stylus Innovation, Direct Hit, Xfire, and Ruba) - Inaki Berenguer (Pixable) - Neil Blumenthal, Andrew Hunt, Jeffrey Raider, David Gilboa (Warby Parker) - Cyrus Massoumi (ZocDoc) - Jessica Flannery (Kiva.org) The list can go on...
- MattRob 14y ago
  I totally agree. As I said in the original post: "I am not trying to argue that there is no place for MBAs, or that no MBA has a clue about startups – both of those are demonstrably untrue. Also having an MBA itself is clearly not the problem."
  - antr 14y ago
    The title should be "Why we have never hired someone who wants to be a Product Manager". The MBA angle/title is total link-bait and a cheap way of stereotyping anyone. These type of posts, in the past year, have turned HN into the perfect example of double standards.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      No, I think it's a real issue. The typical routes out of MBA programs are managerial or consulting roles. That's great; the degree was designed to give future managers a broad, intellectual understanding of business as practiced by large American corporations. Startups don't have those roles. At all. If you've hired right, everybody has smart opinions and nobody needs much management. What you need is people who can get things done right now. People with experience in designing interfaces, in interviewing users, in banging out prototypes, in running ad campaigns. MBA programs teach a lot of great stuff. But none of my friend with MBAs got significant hands-on practical experience there.
orangethirty 14y ago
I kindly suggest that you change the title. The points you make are very good. But the title does not do the blog post justice. It takes away from it. One of the key points when creating a headline for an HN post is to not use the word Why with an abosolute negative. It makes the community go in with a negative approach. You may try the following headline example and get more views/upvotes/comments: Why we've had bad luck interviewing MBAs. This one talks about your experience without sounding link baity. It also relates directly to your experiences. In regards to your experiences. I think the issues with MBAs come from their conventional business education. A lot of them are not prepared to worok with startups. There are some good people out there, but it is not the standard.
jsherry 14y ago
I think that a better explanation of the problem you're facing is that you're wasting your time taking conversations with people who you quite obviously don't have an opportunity for at GoCardless. For example, your jobs page is filled with engineering roles. Unless you're talking to someone who is an engineer, who might just happen to also have an MBA, why are you taking the conversation? Disclaimer: I have an MBA from a top tier school, and despite that fact, I have the utmost respect for execution. I clean data, I test, I write database queries that include all sorts of joins and I even code a little. The big data company I co-founded in NYC (CB Insights http://www.cbinsights.com http://www.cbinsights.com) is aggressively seeking talented PHP / MySQL developers. If you happen to have an MBA, that's cool, but regardless we take all shapes and sizes so long as you like to code and ship weekly. Email me at the address in my profile if interested.
robomartin 14y ago
I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the day after he got his MBA from Pepperdine. He had been working as an engineer for about 20 years when he decided to go for the MBA. I had come across a number of MBA's in my business and was less than impressed. At one point I asked him: What's an MBA good for? His answer: Absolutely nothing. He then argued that an MBA devoid of solid experience in another field, well, just didn't get reality. Academic studies don't necessarily converge with reality, at least not perfectly. In his case, having spent so many years in various engineering disciplines the advantage was that he came into the MBA program with a great deal of context in reality and came out of it with knowledge that was well founded, modulated and qualified by the reality filters he had developed over the years. That portion of the discussion matched what I had seen. The only MBA's I had come into contact with that "got it" seemed to be those who went into the MBA program after having worked in the real world for a good while. Would I hire an MBA? They'd really have to show me that they get reality and are not living inside of some star-trek-ish distortion field.
geebee 14y ago
"Product Manager", like "User Experience Designer" or "Software Architect" is one of those abstract, higher level roles that doesn't really exist on small teams. I do think that these folks can add value in much larger organizations, but in my experience, the only good ones are the ones who would be useful on small teams. In short, a "software architect" who couldn't immediately transition to a highly productive role writing code almost certainly isn't a good software architect. A "user experience designer" who couldn't immediately sit down with a programmer and start creating a polished site almost certainly isn't a useful "UX Designer". And by could, I also mean would. The good designers and architects are kind of delighted to get a chance to get their hands into code again. It sounds like the problem with MBAs (based on this essay) is that they seek those higher level roles 1) where they don't exist, or 2) without the more hands-on background that seems to be a prerequisite for success at a more abstract level. I do sympathize with the people who object to the "black mark". A black mark is a conviction for embezzlement, not a degree honestly earned (albeit of potentially dubious value). But you know, filters are both a luxury and a necessity. Some people won't look at any resume that doesn't have a CS degree from a top school. If you're so deluged with candidates that you can afford to (and need to) do this, obviously you're in a position or real strength. Aside from my "black mark" objection, I think the rest of this essay is spot-on. The rejection is based more on a conversation than a rigid filter, he engages with the interested candidate a bit to see how they might fit.
drp4929 14y ago
Is now the time to hire MBAs ? http://bhorowitz.com/2012/05/18/is-now-the-time-to-hire-mbas/ http://bhorowitz.com/2012/05/18/is-now-the-time-to-hire-mbas...
johnrgrace 14y ago
Thank god I got the MSc in Finance instead of the MBA when I didn't get that PHD in finance. I would say Most people get MBA's in order to change their job. Either they want a promotion or want to switch industries and MBA programs are great for doing that. For a startup that just isn't the profile of person you're looking for. In that heap of MBA's there are some people I'd call business nerds. They love to learn about how business works and are cluefull if you talk with them. Hire a business nerd if you can find one.

68 points by MattRob 14y ago

I've been saying this forever; "If your whole role is to come up with ideas & strategies for the product but you can’t make them happen yourself, and have a very limited understanding of how you could, you are pointless." Best product managers and/or designers are usually the engineers working, using and breathing the product.

sritch 14y ago

It's kind of ridiculous that HN and the whole startup community has a vendetta against MBAs. Seeing it as a blackmark? You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail.

debacle 14y ago
An MBA is like an engineering masters - you're more valuable with a BS/BA and 3 years experience. After you have ~5 years of experience, that graduate degree becomes highly valuable compared to additional years of work experience. An MBA is an important step towards becoming a stronger manager for most people, however it probably shouldn't be the first step you take out of undergraduate studies.
- MattRogish 14y ago
  Absolutely. I have an MBA after being in the software industry for a while. MBA fresh out of undergrad is insane and all of the MBA programs I looked at required years of industry experience. I'd really question the value of a MBA program that lets in 22 year olds fresh out of undergrad.
  - GFischer 14y ago
    I think your point is key. I'm finishing an MBA-type program (it's a Masters in Technology Management actually, but 2/3rds of the courses are shared with the MBA), and I definitely wouldn't have gotten so much out of it 5 years ago. Similarly, many of the things I was taught as an undergrad only made sense many years later (and I regret not having given them more attention). In fact, my MBA-type program actually has an emphasis on entrepreneurship - we had an entire class based on Steve Blank's Customer Development model, which involved "getting outside the building" a lot. They encourage startup building so much, I'm planning to turn my business plan into a startup :)
fear91 14y ago
What makes you think that being a MBA equates to having business skills? Being MBA is just being MBA. People who don't get higher education and just start their companies fresh out of high-schools will have WAY more business skills than MBA. I'd say that 2 years of running your own business gives you more business skills than 5 years of MBA education.
- benbataille 14y ago
  Doubtful. In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree. It's highly unlikely you are ever going to study extensively algorithm, os and databases design, compilation or declarative and functional programming all by yourself because objectively it's not something you need to get the job done. Nevertheless, this knowledge becomes really useful as soon as you start designing complex system. Doing an MBA (or an MSc for what it's worth, MBA cult is mostly anglo-saxon) is exactly the same thing. You will study a broad range of subjects and business areas and see different theories on them. Don't misunderstand me, practical knowledge is invaluable and running your own company gives you a good understanding of your area. It's just than MBA will give you a broader if less practical view.
  - loboman 14y ago
    "In the same way being an hobbyist programmer will never give you the same skill set than a CS degree." Never? Despite the countless examples, including Torvalds and Carmack? I really disagree on that.
    - pdubs 14y ago
      Torvalds has a masters in CS. "Never" is a strong word, but the rest of the paragraph you're harpooning makes a different point than the one you're refuting.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        According to Wikipedia, Linux was developed around his second year in university. That would suggest that he did not have a degree during its development and had a formal education, at that time, roughly equivalent to the average university dropout. I think that still supports the parent's claim, even if it is a little misleading as written.
randomdata 14y ago
You are quick to judge an MBA based on their education. People are judged by their education all the time. Why should MBAs be exempt? Though I do agree that the arbitrarily judging of someone based on what learning they have done in their life is ridiculous. Though I can't help but feel that even you have done the exact same judging: "Maybe if people working in startups weren't such elitists and thinking you don't need business skills to run a startup, you wouldn't have so many fail." Not having an MBA doesn't mean you do not have business skills.
- sritch 14y ago
  People look at successful dropouts and think "not having a degree MUST be the key to success". People are judged better by their lack of formal education than those having attended post-secondary.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    That's ridiculous. People are judged by what they've gotten done in the real world. Nobody says, "Oh, that guy just dropped out of college; he must be smart, so let's hire him." They don't have a bias against education. They have a bias toward experience.
MattRob 14y ago
I have no vendetta. It is simple pattern matching: I receive lots of applications every day. When nine out of ten that share one common characteristic (MBA), share another (no understanding of how they could add value in an early stage startup), you begin to connect the dots.
wpietri 14y ago
Most startups don't fail for reasons of business management and business strategy. It's also a little weird to say that we're elitists because we're not hiring the elite of the business world.

anonymousy 14y ago

I had the impression that GoCardless was founded by a few ex management consultants, how come when they 'become' startup founders they start attacking their own trade? Also judging the whole population of MBAs by seeing a few over-anxiously MBA job seekers doesn't do any justice?

MattRob 14y ago
Absolutely. I should have made this clearer, I've added a note in the first para of the post. The intention was not to attack any trade but to highlight a worrying misconception that seems to be particularly prevalent amongst MBA grads and ex-consultants. A segment that I feel my background makes me particularly able to comment on.
- sjg007 14y ago
  New grads in any field are kind of like this. MBAs that came from business first are probably more humble then this, or already spoken for. They do probably have some value for longer term planning or networking. But that should be in addition to raw technical talent or raw business acumen to get the current job done.
darkarmani 14y ago
I don't see him attacking the whole population of MBAs. > The problem is that a large proportion of MBAs ambitions seem to have moved away from entering a large corporate to becoming part of the burgeoning startup scene, and this shift has not been reflected in the course content. He's really talking about inexperienced, fresh-out-of-school MBAs.

jedberg 14y ago

I wouldn't consider someone with an MBA a black mark, but the author hits the nail on the head -- an early stage startup needs someone who can execute, not just come up with ideas. If that person with the MBA has the skills and more importantly the desire to get in an get their hands dirty executing on their own ideas, then great! But from my experience, most MBAs want to come up with the ideas and want others to execute them.

pdubs 14y ago
I also know of a lot of tech people with the ideas and the skills, but no idea how to successfully execute them. I'm on the tech side of things, but I've experienced what a good PM can do for a team.
MattRob 14y ago
It's not that I won't look at any MBA but that when I do I'm watching out for particular things. When nine out of ten apps that display a particular attribute share or lack another common attribute, that seems like a sensible response. Like you say, the key is the ability and desire to execute.

atldev 14y ago

This doesn't seem any different than the language wars that take place here. In fact, you could cherry pick anecdotes to support hate towards any demographic- age, hometown, music preferences, etc. An MBA proves nothing more than the candidate was interested in pursuing graduate level education. I'm a solo technical founder. I write code, marketing copy, and proposals. I'm a product manager. And my MBA curriculum covered areas that would be a huge help to product managers. If you auto-reject CVs with an MBA, you're missing out on a great talent pool. Perhaps you should only give "black marks" to candidates who are clueless about what it takes to manage products. But don't tie that to the MBA.

wpietri 14y ago
When you're looking for resumes, you're not looking to be perfectly fair. You're looking to sort wheat from chaff. For me, for example, developer certifications are a black mark. Does that mean I auto-reject people with them? No. But it is correlated with a couple of different kinds characteristics I don't want in a developer, so they lose points. But aren't there some good people with certifications? Am I not being unfair? Sure. My job isn't to be fair; it's to find a great person in minimum time.
MattRob 14y ago
To be clear, it's not an auto-reject, it's an early warning mechanism. I see the relationship between MBAs and cluelessness as one of correlation not causation.
- hnriot 14y ago
  If you find a correlation between MBA and cluelessness then I would either doubt your sample size or your methods. Be very very careful in any kind of statistical fashion to allow anecdotal evidence to cloud your opinion. People who think there's a correlation with MBA's and cluelessness are themselves, just as clueless.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    He's not saying MBAs are generally clueless. He's saying that fresh MBA grads are clueless about startups, which is something they haven't been trained for.

sardonicbryan 14y ago

One of the best hires I've ever made is a classic finance MBA -- top tier investment bank analyst program out of undergrad, HBS, private equity. The key was that: 1) He was referred to my startup by someone in our network, so he had at least a basic understanding of how our company worked. 2) He offered to come in as an intern just to get his foot in the door, and was extremely humble about his value to the company; basically recognized that he wouldn't that productive at first. (We brought him in as an analyst and he made because a lead PM in about 7 months).) There is a lot to like about people with that background: extremely smart, hardworking, with hard analytical skills. If the two basic criteria from above are met (basic understanding of the business, strong desire to come in and learn), then I would strongly recommend snagging an MBA if you can.

Evbn 14y ago
Do you think the MBA and banking was a boost, or a five year delay in getting his career going?
- rayiner 14y ago
  What's the big rush?
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  >top tier investment bank analyst program out of undergrad, HBS, private equity. Clearly a five year delay. Seriously though, let's not overanalyze here.
- sardonicbryan 14y ago
  Personally, I don't. For one thing, his hard analytical skills (read: Excel hacker) were obviously honed by working in finance. I also feel his background gave him tons of real world, high stakes experience in using Excel to turn data into decisions, which is hard to replicate. Also, I think working a shitty ibanking job with crazy hours can make you both willing to grind and appreciative of how fun being a tech pm can be.

andrewcooke 14y ago

i imagine there's a load of cultural baggage here, but the two mbas i know did it in evenings, while raising children, and holding down jobs (that they were good at). the fact that they got theirs is a credit to their determination. more than that, i helped one of them on some module, because they knew i "knew about computers" and it turned out that they were learning how to configure firewalls (!) (in a very abstract way - the idea was to understand what a firewall was, not how iptables worked - and we got top marks for that assignment ;o). i guess it was some kind of i.t. security basics. anyway, the breadth of what they were covering surprised and impressed me.

JofArnold 14y ago

As another data point, YC's fastest ever exit was ran by an MBA.

MattRob 14y ago
I actually knew this. I should have mentioned it. As I said: any argument that "no MBA has a clue about startups...[is] demonstrably untrue".

retube 14y ago

urgh this guy oozes arrogance

jh3 14y ago
The comments in this thread are oozing the same arrogance.
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  i'm sorry i offended you. if you can explain, please, what was so arrogant about my own post i will try to correct it in future.
  - jh3 14y ago
    Well, it was a generalization but you did not offend me. I guess I am no better than the comments that may have actually annoyed me, huh? No need to apologize to me, by the way.

comatose_kid 14y ago

Hi Matt, You just haven't found the right MBA :) Some quick background: I'm attending school part-time for my MBA (Richard Ivey, case-based). I've also been with a successful YC startup from the the ground floor as a technical hire, and am currently the co-founder of a very early stage startup. Your article raises some really good points - most of which I agree with completely. Execution is key, and becoming a PM at an early stage startup is misguided if you're not able to implement your ideas. That said, should a startup outright ignore applicants with MBAs? Like most things...it depends. The leadership, communication and (yes) strategic skills that a good MBA provides are important. Coupling these strengths with a technical background is a pretty powerful combination.

MattRob 14y ago
Totally agree with this
sritch 14y ago
A fellow Ivey! I did my HBA however.

deleted 14y ago

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hack_edu 14y ago

> the fundamental rule of startups: ideas & strategies are worthless, execution is everything. Oh boy... I agree with the whole "idea-guys are hacks" thing but this phrasing is no less alarming. Don't worry about the product, we can always jut pivot!

antr 14y ago

I haven't got an MBA but many close friends do - and none of them fit Matt's views. I repeat, none. Having an MBA is not a black and white scenario, and that same "profile" can apply to anyone with no MBA. Still, let the facts do the talking, founders/executers with MBAs: - Chris Dixon (Hunch, among others) - Jeff Skoll (eBay) - Trip Hawkins (Electronic Arts) - Vinod Khosla, Scott McNealy(Sun Microsystems) - Gery Kremen (Match.com) - Alexandra Wilson and Alexis Maybank (Gilt Groupe) - Jeff Fluhr (Stubhub) - Miriam Naficy (Minted, Eve.com) - Victoria Ransom and Alain Chuard (Wildfire) - Mike Cassidy (Stylus Innovation, Direct Hit, Xfire, and Ruba) - Inaki Berenguer (Pixable) - Neil Blumenthal, Andrew Hunt, Jeffrey Raider, David Gilboa (Warby Parker) - Cyrus Massoumi (ZocDoc) - Jessica Flannery (Kiva.org) The list can go on...

MattRob 14y ago
I totally agree. As I said in the original post: "I am not trying to argue that there is no place for MBAs, or that no MBA has a clue about startups – both of those are demonstrably untrue. Also having an MBA itself is clearly not the problem."
- antr 14y ago
  The title should be "Why we have never hired someone who wants to be a Product Manager". The MBA angle/title is total link-bait and a cheap way of stereotyping anyone. These type of posts, in the past year, have turned HN into the perfect example of double standards.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    No, I think it's a real issue. The typical routes out of MBA programs are managerial or consulting roles. That's great; the degree was designed to give future managers a broad, intellectual understanding of business as practiced by large American corporations. Startups don't have those roles. At all. If you've hired right, everybody has smart opinions and nobody needs much management. What you need is people who can get things done right now. People with experience in designing interfaces, in interviewing users, in banging out prototypes, in running ad campaigns. MBA programs teach a lot of great stuff. But none of my friend with MBAs got significant hands-on practical experience there.

orangethirty 14y ago

I kindly suggest that you change the title. The points you make are very good. But the title does not do the blog post justice. It takes away from it. One of the key points when creating a headline for an HN post is to not use the word Why with an abosolute negative. It makes the community go in with a negative approach. You may try the following headline example and get more views/upvotes/comments: Why we've had bad luck interviewing MBAs. This one talks about your experience without sounding link baity. It also relates directly to your experiences. In regards to your experiences. I think the issues with MBAs come from their conventional business education. A lot of them are not prepared to worok with startups. There are some good people out there, but it is not the standard.

jsherry 14y ago

I think that a better explanation of the problem you're facing is that you're wasting your time taking conversations with people who you quite obviously don't have an opportunity for at GoCardless. For example, your jobs page is filled with engineering roles. Unless you're talking to someone who is an engineer, who might just happen to also have an MBA, why are you taking the conversation? Disclaimer: I have an MBA from a top tier school, and despite that fact, I have the utmost respect for execution. I clean data, I test, I write database queries that include all sorts of joins and I even code a little. The big data company I co-founded in NYC (CB Insights http://www.cbinsights.com http://www.cbinsights.com) is aggressively seeking talented PHP / MySQL developers. If you happen to have an MBA, that's cool, but regardless we take all shapes and sizes so long as you like to code and ship weekly. Email me at the address in my profile if interested.

robomartin 14y ago

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine the day after he got his MBA from Pepperdine. He had been working as an engineer for about 20 years when he decided to go for the MBA. I had come across a number of MBA's in my business and was less than impressed. At one point I asked him: What's an MBA good for? His answer: Absolutely nothing. He then argued that an MBA devoid of solid experience in another field, well, just didn't get reality. Academic studies don't necessarily converge with reality, at least not perfectly. In his case, having spent so many years in various engineering disciplines the advantage was that he came into the MBA program with a great deal of context in reality and came out of it with knowledge that was well founded, modulated and qualified by the reality filters he had developed over the years. That portion of the discussion matched what I had seen. The only MBA's I had come into contact with that "got it" seemed to be those who went into the MBA program after having worked in the real world for a good while. Would I hire an MBA? They'd really have to show me that they get reality and are not living inside of some star-trek-ish distortion field.

geebee 14y ago

"Product Manager", like "User Experience Designer" or "Software Architect" is one of those abstract, higher level roles that doesn't really exist on small teams. I do think that these folks can add value in much larger organizations, but in my experience, the only good ones are the ones who would be useful on small teams. In short, a "software architect" who couldn't immediately transition to a highly productive role writing code almost certainly isn't a good software architect. A "user experience designer" who couldn't immediately sit down with a programmer and start creating a polished site almost certainly isn't a useful "UX Designer". And by could, I also mean would. The good designers and architects are kind of delighted to get a chance to get their hands into code again. It sounds like the problem with MBAs (based on this essay) is that they seek those higher level roles 1) where they don't exist, or 2) without the more hands-on background that seems to be a prerequisite for success at a more abstract level. I do sympathize with the people who object to the "black mark". A black mark is a conviction for embezzlement, not a degree honestly earned (albeit of potentially dubious value). But you know, filters are both a luxury and a necessity. Some people won't look at any resume that doesn't have a CS degree from a top school. If you're so deluged with candidates that you can afford to (and need to) do this, obviously you're in a position or real strength. Aside from my "black mark" objection, I think the rest of this essay is spot-on. The rejection is based more on a conversation than a rigid filter, he engages with the interested candidate a bit to see how they might fit.

drp4929 14y ago

Is now the time to hire MBAs ? http://bhorowitz.com/2012/05/18/is-now-the-time-to-hire-mbas/ http://bhorowitz.com/2012/05/18/is-now-the-time-to-hire-mbas...

johnrgrace 14y ago

Thank god I got the MSc in Finance instead of the MBA when I didn't get that PHD in finance. I would say Most people get MBA's in order to change their job. Either they want a promotion or want to switch industries and MBA programs are great for doing that. For a startup that just isn't the profile of person you're looking for. In that heap of MBA's there are some people I'd call business nerds. They love to learn about how business works and are cluefull if you talk with them. Hire a business nerd if you can find one.