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New bill would let New Yorkers hang solar panels from windows
- rjsw 6mo agoIt is a thing [1] elsewhere already. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power
- fhdkweig 6mo agoThe technology is well understood. It is really a regulation problem, which is why it is coming state-by-state. States are just now even looking at the idea. For a complete list of which states allow it, check out this link https://plugsolarhub.com/states-and-regulations https://plugsolarhub.com/states-and-regulations
- citrin_ru 6mo agoThere are some safety concerns at least for relatively powerful panels - e. g. if a circuit breaker is 30A you can draw up to 30A from the grid in absence of panels. If you connect a panel which can provide another 30A then a device in theory will be able to draw 60A from the socket not triggering circuit breaker which will overload the socket circuit.
- fhdkweig 6mo agoThey don't generate anywhere close to 30A for exactly that reason. They are limited to 400W (4 Amps) https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=balcony+solar+maximum+wattage&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=balcony+solar+maximum+watta...
- zdragnar 6mo agoMost circuits with standard plugs on them are 15A in the US. A single space heater will fully utilize one.
- fhdkweig 6mo agoIt is also why every space heater in the United States uses exactly 1.5KW. It is like maximum strength medication. You can't legally buy more, and no one wants less.
- wongarsu 6mo agoSince the panels don't plug in directly but have to go through an inverter that turns the panel's DC into the grid's AC, you can "solve" this by limiting the maximum output current of the inverter to some safe level (e.g. allowing 8A of solar on a 20A circuit, eating into safety margins). You can still connect powerful panels, but all that will get you is more output in mornings, evenings and under cloud cover, not more max output. Or you can pair it with a reasonably sized battery to store midday "surplus" (any generation beyond the determined safe level) and release it into the circuit when the panel generates less
- euroderf 6mo agoDoes it make sense to sell panels that plug only directly into the fusebox ? To avoid overloading in-wall wiring.
- citrin_ru 6mo agoThat's how traditional (not plug in) panels are connected. The problem is - you need to route a cable from window/balcony to the panel (which may be located outside an apartment in a hall) and if you want to hide the cable in walls it becomes expensive. With plugin you can use closest to the panel socket. En easier solution is a clamp power meter on a socket circuit connected to the inventor via z-ware / zigbee so the inverter can see total socket circuit load and limit own power as a protective measure (at which point a circuit breaker likely will be tripped).
- a_paddy 6mo ago[dead]
- fhdkweig 6mo agoThe comment by a_paddy is dead and I can't respond to it directly, but all electrical generation and inverters have disconnect switches that monitor for that exact scenario and disconnect in less than 1 cycle (1/60 second). This has been a solved problem for a very long time, yet seems to come up in every forum that discusses home solar.
- embedding-shape 6mo agoThere is always also someone piling "And also, you have to clean them!" as an argument against solar panels, somehow thinking that 30 seconds with a anti-duster wand is some big drawback.
- justinclift 6mo agoThat website just seems to hang?
- fhdkweig 6mo agoIt is powered by javascript for purely decorative reasons, but it won't display without it. Try this one, it has a clickable map: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/states-passing-balcony-solar-laws https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/states-passing-ba...
- lordleft 6mo agoI live in Brooklyn and have spent about a grand outfitting my apartment with ACs. I would absolutely take advantage of this if the law passed.
- noja 6mo agoYou can outfit an entire apartment with AC for a thousand bucks?!
- bethekidyouwant 6mo agoIt’s not hanging from a window… I’m having trouble picturing what that look like.
- Hendrikto 6mo agoLike this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power#/media/File%3A2023-05-05_Sogenanntes_Balkonkraftwerk%2C_eine_Mini-PV-Anlage%2C_in_Tauberbischofsheim_01.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power#/media/Fil...
- RickJWagner 6mo agoThis can be dangerous for utility company workers. When a line needs to be repaired, the technician takes steps to ensure the line isn’t carrying current from known sources. A panel plugged in by a civilian via a home outlet is not known. The technician can be killed by the unexpected current.
- actionfromafar 6mo agoThat's exactly right, and the very reason the germans figured out a solution.
- aquova 6mo agoThe panels are designed to not provide current if no current is detected on the mains. Otherwise you would also have a live plug at the end of the panel. Killing your own customers is typically not a good business strategy, so quite a lot of safety has been focused on ensuring this isn't a problem.
- wongarsu 6mo agoNot just designed not to provide current, in general they simply can't. They follow the phase from the mains (the sine curve of voltage and current), without the mains there isn't a phase to follow and they simply can't output anything This was a contributing factor in the Spain blackout, because even large-scale solar and wind plants were using the same type of simple inverters
- Tade0 6mo agoTo be fair all large scale generators are designed to stop when suddenly 8GW of capacity goes missing.
- mrks_hy 6mo ago> contributing factor in the Spain Not really, the full report refuted this. Issue in Spain was much more nuanced. Mostly related to lax voltage controls and outdated and slow control mechanisms at the grid, high voltage net.
- ButlerianJihad 6mo agoI live in the Phoenix metro area, on the second floor. My balcony faces precisely 225° in azimuth. That is due southwest. A few years ago, I purchased a "solar backpack" which incorporates a solar panel and a laptop-sized power bank. During the winter solstice, I tried charging the power bank with actual solar energy, and it took more than 3 weeks to fill it up! Our lease agreement has some concessions for potential satellite dishes and external TV antennas. So I asked my landlady if she would permit me to install solar panels out there. Her answer was a resounding "NO". It wasn't merely about the aesthetics, but also about the question of hooking them up. Our electricity is unmetered and included in our rent. My unit has an individual circuit breaker box, but how would solar power be fed into such a system? It would be chaos, and the management would have no way of regulating or maintaining such a bizarre setup. I think that's going to be a major logistics challenge for anyone who goes down this road.
- fortran77 6mo agoAnd also liability for things falling out of windows.
- elijaht 6mo agoIs that not also a concern for window AC units?
- fortran77 6mo agoYes. Which is why laws require brackets, etc. But landlords have to allow window air conditioners (installed properly, etc) because old people can die in the heat. They're less likely to want to accept liability for something not required by law. Air Conditioners also injure firefighters because they tend to fall during fires: https://nypost.com/2026/01/06/us-news/nyc-bravest-hit-in-head-by-falling-ac-during-raging-inferno/ https://nypost.com/2026/01/06/us-news/nyc-bravest-hit-in-hea...
- timdiggerm 6mo ago> Our electricity is unmetered and included in our rent. My unit has an individual circuit breaker box, but how would solar power be fed into such a system I don't understand. These systems just plug into wall outlets. The big difference is that, instead of saving yourself money, you'd be saving your landlady money on the bill.
- eggy 6mo agoSince it's not a battery storage setup, the energy being sent into your home circuit alleviates demand by a small amount. Where did they come up with 10 to 25% savings? Factors such as an optimal view of the sun for as much as possible, south-facing or biased East or West, would be the max. payoff. Night would be a zero net gain. At a savings of $7 a month, the panel would pay for itself in maybe 10 years not factoring in government subsidies. You need to keep it clean as well for it to maintain its potential output.
- jacquesm 6mo agoIt may well be in reduced AC bill as well due to increased reflectivity.
- MisterTea 6mo ago> Where did they come up with 10 to 25% savings? I did really rough math and a hypothetical 200W panel getting 100% sun for 5 hours per day (1 kW/hr) would net you a whopping ~$9.30 in savings per month. We're paying something like $0.31 per kW/hr in NYC and it's a lot of money right now.
- Aurornis 6mo agoDid your calculations account for the suboptimal angle of the panels in most balcony solar setups? Most calculators assume the panels are at an optimal angle or on a roof pitch, not vertical like the image in the article. A setup like the image in the article is going to get much lower than optimal efficiency because the panel is mounted vertically. She could be netting closer to $2-3 dollars per month or even less depending on which way she’s facing.
- MisterTea 6mo agoI said hypothetical.
- jillesvangurp 6mo agoStuff like your fridge can use a fair chunk of power continuously and a small solar setup can offset that when the sun is out. Same with routers, chargers, standby devices, TVs, etc. For a 800W setup, 4–5 kWh on a very good summer day is plausible. Over a full year, it's going to be something like 600–900 kWh depending on orientation, shading, and location. So in strong summer months you might get something like 80–120 kWh. But you won't be able to use all of that unless you have a battery. However, A typical apartment in Germany is not using that much electricity. Roughly speaking, a one-person place might use around 160 kWh a month and a two-person place around 270 kWh. Finding a use for 20–30 kWh a month during sunny periods. That's how you get to 10%. 25% might be harder but doable if you could somehow have a battery soak up the excess power. I don't think there are a lot of plug and play solutions for that yet. But it should not be that hard to do technically. Power in Germany is relatively expensive 160*0.40 is about 80/month for me. I pay a bit less than that because I use less power somehow. But still, that's is close to 1000 euro per year. Saving 100 per year means the whole setup would earn itself back in 2-4 years (most plug and play setups you find on amazon are between 200 and 400 euro). And depending on where you live you can actually get some of that back via subsidy. But it basically pays for itself even if you don't. Unless like me your balcony faces east and you only get a few hours of sunlight in the morning.
- comrade1234 6mo agoI wonder what the terminal velocity of a falling solar panel is...
- barbazoo 6mo agoAbout the same as that of a falling AC unit I reckon.
- nickcw 6mo ago> Her 3.5 foot by 3.5 foot solar panel weighs about 25 pounds and is a half-inch thick. It can harvest about 220 watts of energy from the sun each day. Grrrr. Watts is not a unit of energy. As a holder of a physics degree this annoys me quite a lot. Journalists seem to have trouble keeping track of energy vs power. It's like saying my friends house is 5 miles per hour away. /rant off
- foobarian 6mo agoYou have to just close your eyes and hum a requiem for the glory days. Like I do when questions are begged
- hgoel 6mo agoI have this peeve too, but tbh it feels like most people make this mistake, and usually it is easy enough to guess what was intended.
- Tade0 6mo agoI can never guess when they write about grid storage, because almost always the unit used is watts, but it can mean whatever.
- fhdkweig 6mo agoWith storage the watts are also important because it is a measure of how much power it can replace from other power plant sources which are also measured in watts. Admittedly, the time it will last is omitted, so a full energy calculation can't be done, but at least you know how many dirty peaker plants it replaces.
- compumike 6mo agoJust wait until you see "kW/h" :) But I think plug-in / balcony solar will be pretty cool. And I think there's a path to inexpensive, larger, safer grid-tie inverters which never backfeed, but prioritize solar input first and make up the difference with grid power. For example, I'm imagining a box that would plug in to the wall, have a DC input from solar panels, and a power strip for loads supporting up to, ideally, a full 15A normal US 120V circuit. Currently this box exists in the form of battery power station units (Bluetti, Ecoflow, Anker etc). But I think there could be a much less expensive form that could exist without the battery.
- thinkindie 6mo agoI live in Berlin and it's quite common here. I personally cannot have it because my balcony has no railing but a low wall that doesn't allow me to hang the solar panel. Plus, you need a power socket easily reachable and that's also a blocker for me, otherwise I would have installed it.
- simmschi 6mo agoWe have a similar approach here in Germany. Anyone has the right to install a small solar system on their balcony or similar and feed up to 800W into their local grid. You just mount it and plug it into your house/apartment grid. Technically you have to get it registered, too. The sky is not falling, buildings are not crumbling and the grid is not burning. It's not revolutionary either, but slowly picking up traction. You see more and more installations here in Berlin. On the country side where people have their own house and enough space it's a total no-brainer to set up one of those mini solar systems. The typical systems you can buy off the shelf (800-1000W panels + inverter) amortize after a few years already, and are getting cheaper every year. I have the feeling the main limitation in the city is having a nice balcony with good mounting points.
- foobarian 6mo agoIt's worth noting that the common complaint about systems like this, which is that they could cause dangerous conditions during power outages when people expect the power lines to be unpowered, is addressed by electronics that only feed power when they detect an active mains.
- leonidasrup 6mo agoAll solar inventors connected to public electric grid have to detect this state and disconnect. You are not allowed to connect arbitrary inventors to electric grid, they have to be compliant with IEEE 1547, UL 1741. https://www.aforenergy.com/what-is-anti-islanding-in-solar-inverters/ https://www.aforenergy.com/what-is-anti-islanding-in-solar-i... https://www.iee-business.com/knowledge/wind-solar-hybrid-system-islanding-effect-hazards-detection-methods-prevention-and-mitigation-strategies-4685 https://www.iee-business.com/knowledge/wind-solar-hybrid-sys... The households which installed solar inverters to supply electricity in case of grid blackout really have look into anti-islanding.
- ButlerianJihad 6mo ago> not allowed to connect arbitrary inventors to electric grid Ghost of Thomas Edison breathes a sigh of relief
- NoSalt 6mo agoI read a good article on this technology on CNN.com last month: https://www.cnn.com/clean-energy-solar-diy-balcony-backyard-regulation-utilities-stealth https://www.cnn.com/clean-energy-solar-diy-balcony-backyard-... I live in Virginia, and REALLY want to try this, but I am sure Dominion Virginia Power and my HOA would not be happy; rooftop solar is out of my price range. The article I provided a link to says they are trying to change the laws in the U.S. to enable everybody to do this, and I really hope they are successful.
- tedggh 6mo agoWhy not being more considerate on how we use electricity? Low wattage lightbulbs, less laundry, shorter showers? Also since aesthetics don’t matter, let’s also hang clothes by the windows so we don’t use dryers.
- jerlam 6mo agoNew York already has some of the lowest energy usages in the US. Austerity will only get you so far, and is politically unpopular.
- Aurornis 6mo agoThe hero image in this article shows the realities of a lot of balcony solar setups: The panel is held up with zip ties stretched over a large span, which will snap after UV exposure in the sun. That panel is going to fall over in a few months. The remaining equipment and wiring is sitting on the ground, one errant kick away from dangling off the edge. That power cable is probably running through a door or window where it gets squished and damaged each time it’s opened and closed. The panel is mounted vertically and behind a thick glass panel, meaning it will be getting much less sunlight than the sticker rating, which she probably used to estimate her savings. Balcony solar setups don’t have to look like this, but many do. You can find much better examples from users who do a good job thinking it all through. Often they’re an impulse purchase by someone like the person in the article who want a hobby or the bragging rights of saying they have solar, but for whom the important details like safely mounting everything and running the wires in a way that will survive 10 years are an afterthought. That’s why I’m starting to change my mind on this balcony solar concept for the masses. I think it would be great if there was a low friction way for qualified individuals to install a reasonable system, but I’m afraid the actual reality will be a bunch of zip-tied solar panels dangling from balconies like this.
- szszrk 6mo agoBut let's be fair here, as you do a lot of assumptions: The zip ties are metal zip ties. Those won't fall off because of UV. Panel is hanging inside the balcony. If it falls, it will fall into the balcony - it's bigger then the rails and ground is solid. It's not running behind the glass, the glass looks taken off. I can't be 100% sure, but it seems so. You can't see how the power cable is pushed into the home, so that's pure speculation. The picture looks like taken mid-installation, some metal ties aren't even fastened.
- ofrzeta 6mo agoI had to hack the web site's source code to get to this :) but here's the full pic for further forensics https://images-prod.gothamist.com/images/IMG_0113.2e16d0ba.fill-1400x934.jpg https://images-prod.gothamist.com/images/IMG_0113.2e16d0ba.f... I would say you are right that the zips are stainless steel. My guess is they could still snap easily with a lot of wind but actually I don't know how much load they can take.
- josefritzishere 6mo agoIt's amusing how skeptical Americas are about these renewable projects which are completely commonplace in Europe and Asia. The biggest obstacle to expanding renewable energy in America, is Americans.
- testing22321 6mo ago>The biggest obstacle to improving America, is Americans. FTFY. It’s same same with any change or improvement. Head firmly buried in sand.
- damnesian 6mo agowindows should, themselves, be solar panels. everywhere.
- SAI_Peregrinus 6mo agoSolar panels absorb light. Windows transmit light. Solar panels stop windows from functioning as windows.
- fhdkweig 6mo agoIn office buildings where every wall is a window, the light can be too bright. Photovoltaic windows are like tinted windows that also provide power. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=photovoltaic+windows&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=photovoltaic+windows&ia=web
- euroderf 6mo agoThese are not yet approved in Finland, one reason being that older houses might use thinner conductors to wall outlets that cannot handle higher wattages being fed from solar. Maybe fuses and circuit breakers can prevent problems, maybe not. I am not an electrician. One fix might be a low ceiling on power output from solar units. Another fix might be to sell solar units that connect _only_ directly into a fusebox, completely bypassing in-wall wiring. And then there is a question of island mode, so that when the power lines are down, and under repair, you don't accidentally electrocute a lineman. OTOH maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.
- recursivecaveat 6mo agoI never understood the economics of these. Say a balcony panel would generate $X worth of electricity for me over the next 5 years. Surely someone who can place the panel on a roof or something, where it is not shaded by a giant building half the day, can generate like $3X from it. It can be part of a bigger installation too, so labor is better amortized. Given that the supply of people with roofs is far from exhausted why would the price of panels be at a level where $X instead of $3X is a reasonable return? Basically you are bidding for panels against an unlimited supply of people for whom the panels are much more valuable than to you, no?
- fhdkweig 6mo agoThis is primarily for renters of apartments who aren't allowed to alter the roofs. In the US, labor is more than half the cost of a rooftop installation which is hampering their adoption. The balcony solar has no labor cost at all and if the tenant needs to move, they can take it with them to their next rental so they won't lose their investment.
- heffert 6mo agoDo these people have any idea how poor efficiency will be when you're mounting perpendicular to the ideal orientation? This is pure vibes. It makes no sense. And it's really tacky too. Cheap panels hanging off balconies sounds horrible for the aesthetics of an area. You would hope someone creates panels with cells arranged at an angle so that they point more towards the source. But by then the city will be full of the trashiest junk panels and people only care about the cheapest option anyway.
- wooger 6mo agoAs with window AC units, I worry greatly about the risk of them dropping on people's heads. But beyond that, this whole backyard/balcony power generation stuff makes me think of Chairman Mao's great leap forward; 'everyone should smelt iron in their back yard' programme. Just so many levels of inefficiency, ignored safety protocols and wasted opportunity to do this at a building, city block, city wide or national level that would actually provide some benefit. If you live in the sticks, solar and a battery system is maybe worthwhile for redundancy, but all of this is just a waste. Most of these units will be in landfills in a few years, and the production cost in pollution is magically handwaved away.