11 ms·

Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012)

443 points by downbad_ 7mo ago

downbad_ 7mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443
rustyhancock 7mo ago
The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days. That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day. I genuinely have to revisit old information. A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week! When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one! I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
- telemetrics 7mo ago
  Weird responses from those two users. Ignore them
  - x______________ 7mo ago
    Those responses are very much valid responses to a topic that some share as a valid conversational topic on a thread about getting good sleep and learning, myself included. Even better, the topic is visited on part 6.2[1] of the article you're replying to. 1 https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol >Weird responses from those two users. Ignore them This type of response on the other hand, is not helpful at all and for a 14 day old account with this only post... Some might say you are the one worth ignoring.
- Ifkaluva 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - rustyhancock 7mo ago
    What makes you say that?
    - elAhmo 7mo ago
      Mentioning drinking three times (effects of drinks in the evening, hangover, effects on learning) in a single response might give an impression you like to drink.
      - egormakarov 7mo ago
        I mean, they sell alcohol in shops for money, and not force it on you in some government-mandated way. Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink.
        master-lincoln 7mo ago
        > Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink. No, it just tells you there is enough demand for alcohol selling to be a profitable business, not that people in general like to drink.
        mainmailman 7mo ago
        There are bars everywhere
        master-lincoln 7mo ago
        There are also gambling machines everywhere around me yet I don't know a single person who uses them. I looked up numbers for the USA and 2025 54% said they consume alcohol. So it's most people but millions don't.
- mettamage 7mo ago
  > The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. Can relate. > The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days. I'm not noticing it unsettles my learning but can relate to a few drinks already upsetting my sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if my learning would be impaired by at least a bit. > When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one! Being young is a blessing that way. I'm +35 years old by the way. > I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day. Do you have a source? Would be curious to look some of it up.
  - rustyhancock 7mo ago
    I'm in a similar age bracket. Here is some research around the alcohol effect. What I found most surprising is the mean consumption was over 80g, since 8g of ethanol is a unit that's an astonishing mean of 10units. I was of the impression that the effect was around 1 unit. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/
    - volkl48 7mo ago
      While there's no consistent standard, most countries appear to be using something in the 10-14g range for what they call a "standard drink"/"unit" of alcohol. (UK is 8g, but the rest of the EU typically uses 10g or 12g, US uses 14g). I actually hadn't realized until I went looking that the "standard drink" isn't much of an international standard unit at all. Will have to keep that in mind when reading papers/recommendations from different health authorities in the future. ----- Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to believe the effect just on one noisy study, but even if the reality is something lesser - like it just not harming memory formation of things you'd learned earlier in the day, the implications are still a bit interesting. It certainly adds a bit to some of the historical social biases against "day drinking", and also does a bit to explain how plenty of high-performing young people seem to use alcohol pretty heavily after they're done learning (college students partying, etc) with limited direct impacts on their educational performance.
- chasd00 7mo ago
  I’m 49 and have all but given up on drinking. It does nothing for me except make me tired and then, ironically, mess up my sleep. On fridays I grill cheeseburgers for the family and usually have one Half-Life tall boy from Manhattan Brewery because it’s my favorite of all time but that’s about it. Otherwise, I don’t drink at all. Being tired and not sleeping well is handled perfectly adequately by my job hah.
  - criddell 7mo ago
    I'm pretty much the same as you. I really like beer and wine and cocktails, but the bad sleep and feeling shitty the next day after even one drink isn't worth it. Thirty years ago hangovers were rare and could usually be ended with a cup of coffee, tylenol, and lots of water. The next thing I have to back off on is sugar. It doesn't seem to mess up my sleep like booze, but I definitely notice it the day after I have that big bowl of ice cream or giant slice of cake. A big enough sugar binge feels pretty close to a hangover for me now.
  - born1989 7mo ago
    This must be a marketing campaign bit
    - chasd00 6mo ago
      i was afraid someone would think that, if i just said "half-life" they wouldn't know what i'm talking about. If i just said "have a beer" then it wouldn't be doing justice to the one i really like. oh well :)
- bitexploder 7mo ago
  For a long time with sleep studies they would give participants a single unit of alcohol. Alcohol has always trashed sleep, even when younger.
- raducu 7mo ago
  >The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. Back when I was 20 I had a drinking problem. One time I drank so much that I passed out sitting at a table. Woke up with friends having stripped my clothes and washed them. I woke up at 9AM, feeling 100% sober, just anxious about my 20 missed calls from my mom. I got a bit drunk at about 33 and next day I thought I was dying. That's how I learnt what hangovers were. Again, at around 25, I helped my brother in-law move bee hives all night, including some 8 hours of driving. Went straight to work and in the evening I had dinner with my wife at a restaurant. Now I crash in bed at 9PM and if I'm lucky, I also sleep (but quite often I wake up at 2AM). Getting old(er) sucks, and I'm only 42 and I miss so much how nice being in my 20 something body felt all the time.
  - aethrum 7mo ago
    do you exercise?
    - raducu 6mo ago
      No, I don't. I know I should.
  - tboughen 7mo ago
    I’m 41 and my body is nicer to be in than when I was 25. Like you, I have much less youthful buffer that shrugs off poor sleep or overindulgence, but I have much more knowledge and much better habits. Daily habits: better nutrition (based on Bryan Johnson’s super veggie and nutty pudding), stretching, weak points warmup, proper oral hygiene, regular bedtime Weekly habits: 4x gym, 3x run, 2x weighted walk I have used ChatGPT to work out a program that is helping me to overcome injuries and niggles while building strength and cardio. I’m 3 months into my latest training schedule, and it’s unreasonably effective.
    - alternatex 7mo ago
      Reminder for anyone that doesn't know better: having good sleep is dependent on a few minor lifestyle adjustments. Like avoiding heavy (or any outside of fruit and vegetable) meals and exercise a few hours before going to bed. And avoiding caffeine after noon. You don't need to be a health champion to have good sleep.
- djsamseng 7mo ago
  “Their brains… look like small walnuts inside their skull… There's so much atrophy that happens with an alcohol soaked brain chronically that I would say that's, you know, far and away, the most common source of brain damage” - Dr. Matthew Macdouglas head neurosurgeon at Neurolink on the Huberman podcast starting at 1:40:00
- dkarl 7mo ago
  If my Oura ring can be trusted, alcohol doesn't interfere with my total amount of sleep or my REM sleep, but it reduces my deep sleep drastically and can even result in me getting zero deep sleep, which hasn't happened a single time without alcohol.
- RobRivera 7mo ago
  I went sober dor this precise reason. It's a quality of life thing.
block_dagger 7mo ago
Biphasic/polyphasic sleeper here (not by choice). Makes the work week a lot trickier. I will be reading through this article for insight on how to get the most out of my situation.
ButlerianJihad 7mo ago
I am recently diagnosed with Type II Diabetes. The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them. I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause. One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse. I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go. It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL. Eat right, kids; eat well or be cursed for life!
- kshacker 7mo ago
  IMO Type 2 diabetes is manageable. My father struggled with it for decades and his last few years were not great. Having those same genes, I've spent a lot of time reading and following the data. My take is that T2 is quite manageable. Even reversible, if you focus on it. "Reversible" doesn't mean a lifelong cure, but you can push out your health days by a decade. There are all kinds of solutions that work. High Protein, Mediterranean, Atkins, or even High Carb (the "good" kind). The breakdown usually happens in the "cocktail" of foods. Our bodies are not hybrid engines; we can not switch fuels mid-stream and expect optimal health. You have to pick a poison, let's say, a protein-based diet—and stick to it. Then exercise and intermittent fasting (IF) are force multipliers. I did strict IF for a year, but I have fallen off the wagon lately, only manage 3-4 days of IF a week. The difference in how I feel is stark. What worked for me was something called "Lalit Kapoor" diet — basically a WFPB/vegan approach with heavy green juicing and fasting. My failure was primarily due to social friction. My family eats very differently. Making a special effort for every single meal eventually made me start taking the easy way. I still follow it but I wish I could be 100% rather than 80% and which is where all diets fail.
- mannanj 7mo ago
  Hope you find some relief. I was experiencing similar symptoms in college, and self cured myself through: - diet shift and adjustment, keto and then carnivore specifically - shifting breathing to the nose: the sympathetic nervous system is activated through mouth-breathing, that leads to stress and anxiety all around bogging up everything from the digestive system, lymphatic system and more - happy to share more, my sleep schedule works best by following the sun and guarding myself from artificial lights exposure after happy to share more as stated.
LZ_Khan 7mo ago
Is the author suggesting people to have to live with going through a phase of being nocturnal? In the free running algorithm, we're supposed to sleep 15 minutes later each day until we're falling asleep at like 9AM? That's just incompatible with modern life right?
- veritat14 7mo ago
  I believe Mathew Walker writes in 'Why we sleep' that people's natural circadian cycle varies but on average is 24h and 15 minutes. But yeah sounds pretty inconvenient for most people.
- the_pwner224 7mo ago
  That part didn't make any sense to me either. Yes, the natural circadian cycle in a vacuum is slightly over 24 hours, but exposure to light keeps it synced to the normal 24-hour day. If you free run sleep your cycle should stay locked to 24 hours, just like it has always been with our ancestors who lived without artificial light.
- Unai 7mo ago
  I once tried an extreme version of this. I became single and I already didn't have a fixed work schedule, so other than societal convention there was no reason for me to adhere to any regular day-night cycle. So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed. It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach. The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.
  - dingdongditchme 7mo ago
    Hopefully you made it out of it, but I have to say that was a hilarious read! As not a stranger to pseudorandom sleep cycles I can relate.
sminchev 7mo ago
How can I explain to my 6 months old girl that we all need to sleep :D This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane.... BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them. You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
- lazystone 7mo ago
  How do I explain this to 15yo teenager?..
  - IAmBroom 7mo ago
    Wait 10 years. Minimum.
- VanTodi 7mo ago
  In my area there is a saying like "it takes a village to raise a child". i believe that a good social network is not only important for the kid, but for the parents too. it helps so much to have a partner, grandparents, aunts/uncles, who can look over the kid just for a hour or 2, so you can get your rest. And its usually fun for the kids too. Now that i have 2 kids, a loving wife and 2 families around me, i have the highest respect for all the single moms/dads out there.
  - CalRobert 7mo ago
    As immigrants with no local network, having kids is basically putting yourself under house arrest for a decade or so. You can post bail (pay a babysitter) for occasional reprieve. I mean sure you can go do outings with kids, but for most of them, do you really want to? I know mine aren't particularly enthralled by trips to the Rijksmuseum. I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...
logicprog 7mo ago
I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.
- mettamage 7mo ago
  I have as a kid. It might help you. As a kid, I instinctively (and later also consciously) have trained myself to become lucid while dreaming. When I become lucid, I gain some power. Then I trained myself to be more powerful in dreams. For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight. I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points. Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god). That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.
  - logicprog 7mo ago
    I've trained myself to have powers in the dream, but I rarely, fully know that it's a dream, so it doesn't really help when it's all psychological.
    - mettamage 7mo ago
      You can train for that. There are enough guides on the internet how to do it
sudosteph 7mo ago
I think nearly everyone should be screened for sleep apnea. The at-home test you wear on your finger is so cheap - it doesn't make sense not to do it for anyone who has any issues with sleep or tiredness in the day. I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested. Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason. The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight. Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
- weakfish 7mo ago
  My comment is more of a complaint than a discussion so apologies, but I was disappointed recently because I did at an at home test and scored borderline. I was hopeful that it would be sleep apnea so I could go about solving my bad sleep, but a lab test showed conclusively that I didn’t have it. I got checked out initially because I mentioned to my sister that I didn’t recall the last time I’d woken up and felt refreshed all day, even with 8+ hours, and she said “…that’s not good, get that checked out.” Back to the drawing board :(
  - smj-edison 7mo ago
    Chronic tiredness can be such a hard thing to figure out, sorry you've been going through that! Is it sleepiness (as in can fall asleep at any point of the day), or fatigue (as in non-restorative sleep, brain fog, feeling exhausted, etc)? I've had chronic fatigue (non syndrome) for six years now, so I'm pretty familiar with how obnoxiously long it takes to get answers. Some things to look into: Do a full polysomnogram with MSLT: this will check for sleep apnea, restless leg syndrome, narcolepsy, and idiopathic hypersomnia Look into ME/CFS if you have post exertional malaise (pretty much you cross some invisible line in exertion followed by a delayed crash). Look into MCAS if you also have strange allergy symptoms. I have MCAS, though tbh I didn't really have that many symptoms until I looked at Dr. Afrin's free chapter on MCAS. Maybe fibromyalgia, but you didn't mention muscle pain, so it probably doesn't apply. Obviously depression can cause somatic symptoms, so that's worth checking, but I think people jump to that conclusion too soon. Note that a lot of these conditions don't really have tests, so it's really tricky to get a diagnosis. It takes finding a doctor who's willing to recognize them and give a diagnosis.
amunozo 7mo ago
As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?
- nsbk 7mo ago
  Fellow Spaniard here. Our ancestors were definitely onto something! I think the most important thing when it comes to napping is to show up: find a comfortable spot, use an eye mask, and set a timer for whatever time you have (I typically do something between 10 to 30 minutes). Just close your eyes and don’t open them until the alarm goes off. I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them. I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot. The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra. I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors! [0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLBAPp_W-VNZTi8 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLB...
  - amunozo 7mo ago
    Thank you so much for your detailed answer! I definitely try to show up, but I am an anxious person and sometimes trying to nap makes me even more anxious. However, it is true that even when I don't manage to sleep it helps relaxing me and giving me some extra energy. I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!
laxpri 7mo ago
is this jesus of sleep
- arduanika 7mo ago
  Closer to the Time Cube of sleep! It's an impressive achievement, really. Here's a shorter page of his I've found more digestible: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia
alvsilvao 7mo ago
Putting my laptop to sleep unfortunately didn't increase its memory
NolanMarrow 7mo ago
I really liked the idea of "Free running sleep". Not sure how feasable would be to make it part of my routine TBH. I need to adhere to external schedules (job, family). Maybe someday I'll give it a honest try!
tsumnia 7mo ago
justgetflux.com Helped me start going to bed at 10pm
- pimlottc 7mo ago
  Clickable link: https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/
Antibabelic 7mo ago
> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock. This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
- thisisauserid 7mo ago
  >> sleep only when you are very tired This flies in the face of all sleep research done at the Stanford Health Care’s Sleep Medicine Center. You're confusing treatment for insomnia with recommendations for general sleep hygiene.
- DiffTheEnder 7mo ago
  Wake up without an alarm clock is surely beneficial regardless of when you go to sleep?
  - sd9 7mo ago
    I'm sure it is. It's difficult with a full time job though. Yes, in principle it can be made easier by going to bed earlier... but that's not simple either.
  - integralid 7mo ago
    I try to explain this to my wife, my baby, and my dayjob but they refuse to listen.
- dbvn 7mo ago
  or have even a single obligation in the morning
- dkarl 7mo ago
  Advice like this turns almost everybody's normal state into a disorder. "Go to sleep only when you are very tired" is a child's approach to sleep, it's what we all want to do, and by adulthood we learn that it's counterproductive. But we still want it so much that we regularly test it and are reminded why we don't operate that way. It reminds me of the intuitive eating folks who say, "Ignore standard diet advice, just listen to your body and feed it what it knows you need," but then when you overeat, they say, "You aren't listening properly, you aren't in tune with your body." Then if you ask, "How will I know when I'm in tune with my body and listening to it properly?" they say, "When what it asks for matches standard diet advice."
gitowiec 7mo ago
The most important thing about sleep I learned is to fall asleep at the same moment of every day. Make it 22:00 or 23:00 or 00:00. Whatever is comfortable for you. But you have to stick to the chosen hour as hard as you can. Every day from now on it has to be that hour. After you get used to that you will notice a much better effect of the sleep.
- jelsisi 7mo ago
  I agree with how important this is, but for me, the most significant improvement in my sleep has been pushing my dinner very early, ~6 hrs before bed, and having it be my smallest meal of the day. I usually feel quite hungry about an hour before bed but if I get over that hump my resting heart rate is much lower at night and my appetite the next day is much lower. It was validating to see Bryan Johnson sharing the same findings on x.
  - meeshmuesh 7mo ago
    I think one of the underrated things that Bryan does is he regularly emphasises how central sleep needs to be in your health. I haven't heard that consistant message drilled in by anyone else and it helped me realise how a lot of the things i found difficult to recruit energy/discipline/motivation were related to the low priority I placed on sleep.
    - titanomachy 7mo ago
      Peter Attia is also big on sleep. But it sits alongside 3-4 other things of similar importance in his messaging.
- glerk 7mo ago
  Strongly disagree and you should refrain from trying to give universal advice on these matters. I never had a 24h circadian rhythm. The only way to fall asleep at the same moment every day for me would be to medicate myself. I am very happy and productive when I am allowed to "rotate around the clock" and the worst periods of my life were when I was forced to be on a strict schedule. The most important thing with any health issue is to be aware of your own body.
AheadFin 7mo ago
The explanation of the memory consolidation process during sleep was surprising and made me rethink my habit of using alarms and cutting back on sleep for overtime work.
itissid 7mo ago
Has someone found that they have better alcohol "recovery" if they are pursuing intense or at least regular(at least 3x a week) stamina building exercise like running/swimming?
- hombre_fatal 7mo ago
  Unfortunately not in my case. I wouldn't be surprised if hangovers are worse if you're fit. But what I've found is that forcing a run when hung over does help me move past it. Maybe it helps expel the metabolites from my body.
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hnthrowaway0315 7mo ago
I think a lot of it has to do with mental status, which can be concluded with one sentence -- "Are you happy with your life, and if not do you have a clear path to reach that?". People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true. I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months. Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
- manuisin 7mo ago
  this mirrors my experience too. I’ll just add that some times taking a complete break from work is necessary to find the mental clarity to reach the state where learning, stability and happiness are possible.
  - hnthrowaway0315 7mo ago
    Yeah I think that helps, too. Unfortunately most of us cannot do that. I found a few days is not enough. At least 2 weeks.
    - mothballed 7mo ago
      I used to be able to do this but after having kids they always seem to reset the clock before you can make any headway. I still have not figured out how to regain the clarity. There is no substitute for unobstructed long stretches of time to focus on something. Being unexpectedly interrupted or put on a schedule just ruins it.
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Anonyneko 7mo ago
If only I knew how to have full non-interrupted restorative sleep. It seems that my body started losing that skill about 20 years ago, and lost it altogether about 6 years ago. The falling asleep time is a lottery and I'm always waking up after the first stage, often a few more times after that. Tried all kinds of sleep medication, but by now I've forgotten what it's like to not be half-asleep and unable to concentrate throughout the day (with loud tinnitus and a soupy feel in the brain to boot). Really sucks out any and all enjoyment from life, I can't even find the energy to watch TV shows anymore, let alone read books. I haven't learned anything fundamentally new at work for years too (inertia helps with daily routine).
- pillefitz 6mo ago
  I've been struggling with early waking for a few months, and recently experienced improvements by meditating before bed. Have you ruled out sleep apnea?
djeastm 7mo ago
How are we meant to read and discuss this page? It's huge! It seems like we're all just looking at the title and talking about our sleep habits.
- nunodonato 7mo ago
  thats what I was thinking when reading the comments. How the heck have people had time to read it all and comment? I guess not :) Also, I'm really curious to know if some of it is no longer valid. 14 years is a long time in science
- integralid 7mo ago
  Most people are also n apparently completely off-topic, as in giving advice completely contradictory to the OP (for example "always go to sleep at the same time alway") without even acknowledging that.
hani1808 7mo ago
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gstrike 7mo ago
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mannanj 7mo ago
Best bullshit and industry cutting phrase for better sleep: Follow the sun. Follow the sun for a fixed reference point for when to wake up, and for when to sleep, and guard yourself from artificial lights like it's your professional job. Bryan Johnson says to treat sleep like a professional job, and I take it further: break the standard industrial-factory based paradigm around sleep, work and life and say no to the clock based wellbeing-adversarial system. edit: hours and minutes cannot replace our natural light-based circadian rhythm that evolved for millions of years entraining our hormones and energy cycles around the sun's light.
glerk 7mo ago
I got 4h of sleep last night which is about my normal average at this time of the year, and I have 0 regrets about it. I also don't sleep at a regular time every day. If I have no other obligations, I naturally let it shift forward (what the article calls "delayed sleep phase"). I am most unhappy when I HAVE TO use an alarm clock and break my own patterns. Last night, I naturally went to sleep right before sunrise and I woke up 4 hours later. To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.
- kanbankaren 7mo ago
  0 regrets now doesn't mean 0 regrets decades later.
  - glerk 7mo ago
    That's totally fair, and I'll cross that bridge when I get there like everyone else :) My philosophy is: either I'll live to benefit from technology that can repair the damage caused by aging, in which case health micro-optimizations early in life are not that important, OR this won't be achieved within my lifetime, in which case I prefer a short life with concentrated happiness, vitality and intensity in my youth.
    - kanbankaren 7mo ago
      There is some new scientific finding that in deep sleep, fluids from the brain drain out and if that flushing doesn't happen, it might lead to Alzheimer's disease. You should at least monitor your deep sleep using a smartwatch. Less than 1.5 hours and I would be worried.
profstasiak 7mo ago
I stopped drinking caffeine and sudenly I remember everything
vector_spaces 7mo ago
I have a somewhat rarely diagnosed circadian rhythm disorder called delayed sleep phase disorder. It is difficult to get diagnosed, especially as sleep clinics have been targets of private equity firms which convert them to CPAP shops which only diagnose sleep apnea and whose patients never interact with an MD. However it is likely to be underdiagnosed given the stigma around sleep challenges, at least in the sense that if you make any effort to get enough sleep with such a sleep disorder, you tend to be pegged as lazy, irresponsible, unreliable, etc In any event, I agree with something implicit in the article, namely that most people have a degree of this, but the severity is variable. Mine has been fairly extreme, and while diagnosis enables disability accommodations, it is very fraught navigating most workplaces with this particular disability and you are essentially forced to choose between having any kind of upward mobility and getting enough sleep at night. Thankfully the past two years or so I've been getting much more sleep since optimizing more for that. But anyway, if you are navigating sleep challenges you should get a sleep study, sure, but also be aware that your local sleep clinic is in all likelihood only nominally a sleep clinic. That is, it does not know how to diagnose and treat more complex sleep issues and probably doesn't want to.
- numeri 7mo ago
  I have DSPD as well, and was pleasantly surprised to see how much of the article discussed DSPD. That being said, I do think a lot of what the author is saying flies right in the face of traditional advice, esp. the suggestion that we should all just free-sleep and rotate around the clock. I personally find myself happiest when I'm entrained to the 24-hour cycle, but at my own natural offset. Whenever I've been cycling the day it's felt miserable, uncontrollable and exhausting. To be fair, the author did claim that you can fully solve this by completely cutting out after-dark electronics, but I've tried pretty intensely to do exactly that for extended periods in the past, and didn't see any progress. I do sleep amazingly when camping, though, and the delay is lesser than normal (still definitely there).
xiphmont 7mo ago
Hm, no, non-24 is not just a severe version of DSPS. Or rather he seems to be saying DSPS is really just a less severe version of non-24. I have it. What I've learned from my doc (a researcher in the field): It's primarily a specific genetic mutation that affects many of they body's cyclic timers, but relevant here is that the circadian feedback loop is no longer able to lock to a 24 hour day/night cycle at all. The timer technically works. You're perfectly sensitive to light/dark, but you're hitting a PLL with inputs faster than its ability to make meaningful adjustments. That's not the case with DSPS. Sleep apnea diagnosis is relevant here, it also breaks the breathing reflex timer. Imagine finding out at age 40 that you've not, in fact, slept more than a few minutes at a time your entire life, because you wake up just enough to take a breath every 3 minutes or so when a secondary suffocation reflex goes off.
slowhadoken 7mo ago
I see a lot of people that smoke marijuana being off balance psychologically and I believe it’s because weed inhabits R.E.M. and they smoke it to go to sleep which creates a viscous cycle.
dang 7mo ago
Related. Others? Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 - Oct 2020 (121 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 - Aug 2019 (4 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 - Oct 2018 (254 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 - Dec 2015 (27 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 - Oct 2015 (1 comment) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 - Feb 2013 (121 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 - March 2010 (61 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 - March 2008 (1 comment)
3l3ktr4 7mo ago
eat sleep rave repeat
dysoco 7mo ago
I've never had sleep issues but lately I've been in a bit of a rut. I've always maintained a sleep schedule of going to bed around 00/01hs (not that uncommon in my country) and waking up around 8/9am. However lately I've been arriving VERY tired from work around 19hs. It's very easy to fall asleep right after work and some days I go to sleep for a few hours but then I wake up super late for dinner around 10/11pm and completely screw my schedule, last night I couldn't sleep until 4am or so. Most days I don't sleep and power through since I need to buy groceries, cook, do other stuff around the house etc. but even so after dinner around 9/10pm or so I become very active, I don't get sleepy and I can't easily sleep until 2/3am. I've tried with a bit of melatonin, magnesium, etc. Moreover I've bought an apple watch and discovered I have quite some interruptions during the night, so I'm sleeping around 5-6 hours if I don't sleep at a crazy time, a bit less than what I expected. Any suggestions? I don't know if taking that nap when I come back from work is helpful or not, usually I don't but I do feel quite tired during that time so I wonder if it's the natural stuff to do to try and go to sleep.
- fy20 7mo ago
  How is your physical activity? I used to get really tired at work after lunch, and after I started regularly going to the gym it fixed that. My energy levels throughout the day are now a lot more stable. Didn't fix my insomnia though :-)
  - dysoco 6mo ago
    Yeah barely anything except living in a walkable city and walking every day. Possibly it would be ideal to go to the gym around 7pm or so after work and get some energy there, I'd probably need to try it but I feel too tired and lazy after work heh.
- joveian 6mo ago
  I have multiple severe sleep disorders including non-24 and insomnia so it is hard to tell how my experiences match most people but hopefully this might help some. My sense is that when I sleep only a few hours then can't get back to sleep for at least three hours it means my body is interpreting the sleep as a siesta rather than night sleep (unless it is after sunrise). Non-delayed release melatonin makes this more likely for me. I don't think delayed release makes it less likely (at least not right away) but might at least not make it more likely and longer term it seems to help make it possible for me to sleep on a closer to fixed schedule. Magnesium is one of the few that helps me stay asleep though I suspect what might help you most is if you could take a nap earlier in the day. While most people these days already do this part I've found that caffeine in the morning makes it much less likely that I'll have this issue (I can't have caffeine in the afternoon or too much theobromine even in the morning multiple days in a row or I will have trouble sleeping; I imagine the helpful effect will be much less in people who are desensitized). It sounds like you have a delayed circadian rhythm. The Circadian Sleep Disorders Network has some good info: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ I don't agree with many of the suggestions in this article. Advancing your sleep schedule to try to shift your sleep earlier is particularly harmful and can trigger non-24. In my case, part of my body seems to be synchronized with light and part rotates around the clock leaving me rarely all that functional. It is a disabling condition. A somewhat delayed circadian rhythm seems to usually be much less disabling but may also cause similar trouble if severely delayed (many people don't have as much trouble with non-24 as I do, though I didn't have as much trouble for the first 15ish years either). Waking up at the same time every day is another thing that can help stabilize the circadian rhythm (though I also think it is best to avoid alarm clocks most of the time). Going to sleep at the same time is less important; it is better to go to sleep early if you need more sleep than to sleep in. I think it is best to avoid medication if possible. What I am using now seems to be working the best of anything I've tried but it has only been six months. At night I take 300mcg 6-hour delayed release melatonin, 250mg delayed release magnesium (though I think non-delayed may work just as well), 2.5mg baclofen (the small amount keeps it working with daily use and using it with magnesium works better than either alone), and 8-9mg diphenhydramine (not enough to help me get to sleep but just for the circadian effect, either 1/3 of a 25mg pill or 3.5mL of 12.5mg/5mL liquid). In the morning I usually drink some tea and take .5 tsp (2.5mL) D-ribose which seems to help quite a bit (I had previously tried it without noticing a positive effect but I think I may have only used it later in the day). In the US there seem to be many companies that package D-ribose but only one company that makes it.
otikik 7mo ago
> Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock. If I did that I would go to bed a 5 in the morning and wake up at 2pm, sir.
- jdironman 7mo ago
  Could be a symptom of poor stimulation regulation. I know that's the problem in my case. if I have a phone, screen, or even a book in front of me I can stay up until tomorrow. But, if I shut it all down (roughly 30 to 60 mins) before I actually plan to try and sleep it absolutely causes the tiredness to kick in. I will say there are varying degrees of stimulation. Computer use > TV > Book reading > Music > silence and boredom. At least that is the order in which I shutdown on the nights I have the motivation to do so.
  - otikik 6mo ago
    Thanks. What you say makes sense
pedalpete 7mo ago
I haven't had a chance to read the entire article, but I can already tell that much of how the author viewed sleep in 2012 is not inline with current understandings in sleep science, though much of the wearable and sleep industry still promote this outdated view. Disclosure: I am the co-founder & CEO of neurotech/sleeptech company https://affectablesleep.com https://affectablesleep.com The post talks about "sleep deprivation" which most people, and most studies, view as reduced sleep time. The latest research shows that sleep regularity is a better predictor of health (via morbidity) than sleep duration, even when sleep duration is taken into account. This is on our blog with links to research [1] I have a few issues with the "sleep more" concept, and I often say that you wouldn't measure your diet based on how much time you spend chewing, so why do we think this is a good measure for sleep. The methodology for measuring sleep, particularly deep sleep, was defined in 1968 by the sleeping pattern 28 college aged men and 5 college aged women [2]. We are able to show that decreasing the Neural Function of Sleep, the vital processes of the brain that make sleep restorative, and specifically slow-wave activity, reduces the effectiveness of sleep without altering sleep time. We can also enhance the Neural Function of Sleep to improve health outcomes measured by memory, HRV, cortisol, immune function, and more [3] links to research. This isn't just limited to a bunch of lab studies. As we age, the Neural Function of Sleep naturally declines, and this decline is linked to age related metabolic health, cardiac health, and of course neurological diseases and particularly dementia and Alzhiemer's. Overly focusing on "just get more sleep time" doesn't solve the problem. To further the problem, people often blame sleep for their tiredness, when they have poor diet, don't exercise, and/or poor mental health (stress, burnout, depression, etc). You can complain all you want about the gas mileage on your car and try tuning your engine, etc, but if you've got flat tires, you're not going anywhere. Our work in neurotech and specifically sleep is focused on some of these issues, though I think the more important thing is for people to 1) Understand what sleep schedule works for YOU and focus on consistency and regularity. 2) If you're "tired" ask yourself if you are "tired" or "lethargic" is sleep really to blame? Or could there be other things that are impacting how you feel, or impacting how well you are sleeping. I equate what we know about sleep and the brain today as similar to what we knew about diet and exercise in the 70s. We knew it was important but we really didn't understand how it worked. What we will learn in the next decade will upend our current understanding and have a significant impact on health and longevity. [1] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-doesnt-depend https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-... [2] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/sleep-sciences-blind-spot-how-outdated https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/sleep-sciences-blind-spot... [3] https://affectablesleep.com/how-it-works#research https://affectablesleep.com/how-it-works#research
fnord77 7mo ago
this is the 'spaced repetition' guy?
laughing_abder 7mo ago
[flagged]
apt-apt-apt-apt 7mo ago
Who else constantly pushes their sleep time by 1-2 hours a day, and likes 9-10 hours of sleep? Also, these days it's nearly impossible to stay awake watching a show for more than 10-15 minutes while lying down in bed before a powerful wave of sleep knocks me out, which can be annoying when I want to watch a show.
ItsClo688 6mo ago
I am running a three-person team across three timezones has taught me that the hardest part isn't writing code at odd hours, it's the context-switching cost of partial sleep. You don't feel tired, you just feel slightly wrong all day. Decisions that should take 5 minutes take 30. The mental stability point rings true. When the product direction feels uncertain, sleep gets worse. When sleep gets worse, product decisions get fuzzier. Haven't fully solved this one.
rsanek 6mo ago
So funny to see the recommendation here (track bedtime/wake-time, compute your average cycle length, predict the next bedtime from it, and don't deviate in either direction) be similar to how spaced repetition is typically sold to people: high expectations from users, no affordances for flexibility. These kinds of systems are just not realistic unless you are willing to be a loner that can never deviate from their routine. I do agree that caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, sleeping pills, and (as much as we can) alarm clocks are all things to stay away from.

443 points by downbad_ 7mo ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443

The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days. That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day. I genuinely have to revisit old information. A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week! When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one! I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.

telemetrics 7mo ago
Weird responses from those two users. Ignore them
- x______________ 7mo ago
  Those responses are very much valid responses to a topic that some share as a valid conversational topic on a thread about getting good sleep and learning, myself included. Even better, the topic is visited on part 6.2[1] of the article you're replying to. 1 https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol >Weird responses from those two users. Ignore them This type of response on the other hand, is not helpful at all and for a 14 day old account with this only post... Some might say you are the one worth ignoring.
Ifkaluva 7mo ago
[flagged]
- rustyhancock 7mo ago
  What makes you say that?
  - elAhmo 7mo ago
    Mentioning drinking three times (effects of drinks in the evening, hangover, effects on learning) in a single response might give an impression you like to drink.
    - egormakarov 7mo ago
      I mean, they sell alcohol in shops for money, and not force it on you in some government-mandated way. Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink.
      - master-lincoln 7mo ago
        > Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink. No, it just tells you there is enough demand for alcohol selling to be a profitable business, not that people in general like to drink.
        mainmailman 7mo ago
        There are bars everywhere
        master-lincoln 7mo ago
        There are also gambling machines everywhere around me yet I don't know a single person who uses them. I looked up numbers for the USA and 2025 54% said they consume alcohol. So it's most people but millions don't.
mettamage 7mo ago
> The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. Can relate. > The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days. I'm not noticing it unsettles my learning but can relate to a few drinks already upsetting my sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if my learning would be impaired by at least a bit. > When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one! Being young is a blessing that way. I'm +35 years old by the way. > I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day. Do you have a source? Would be curious to look some of it up.
- rustyhancock 7mo ago
  I'm in a similar age bracket. Here is some research around the alcohol effect. What I found most surprising is the mean consumption was over 80g, since 8g of ethanol is a unit that's an astonishing mean of 10units. I was of the impression that the effect was around 1 unit. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/
  - volkl48 7mo ago
    While there's no consistent standard, most countries appear to be using something in the 10-14g range for what they call a "standard drink"/"unit" of alcohol. (UK is 8g, but the rest of the EU typically uses 10g or 12g, US uses 14g). I actually hadn't realized until I went looking that the "standard drink" isn't much of an international standard unit at all. Will have to keep that in mind when reading papers/recommendations from different health authorities in the future. ----- Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to believe the effect just on one noisy study, but even if the reality is something lesser - like it just not harming memory formation of things you'd learned earlier in the day, the implications are still a bit interesting. It certainly adds a bit to some of the historical social biases against "day drinking", and also does a bit to explain how plenty of high-performing young people seem to use alcohol pretty heavily after they're done learning (college students partying, etc) with limited direct impacts on their educational performance.
chasd00 7mo ago
I’m 49 and have all but given up on drinking. It does nothing for me except make me tired and then, ironically, mess up my sleep. On fridays I grill cheeseburgers for the family and usually have one Half-Life tall boy from Manhattan Brewery because it’s my favorite of all time but that’s about it. Otherwise, I don’t drink at all. Being tired and not sleeping well is handled perfectly adequately by my job hah.
- criddell 7mo ago
  I'm pretty much the same as you. I really like beer and wine and cocktails, but the bad sleep and feeling shitty the next day after even one drink isn't worth it. Thirty years ago hangovers were rare and could usually be ended with a cup of coffee, tylenol, and lots of water. The next thing I have to back off on is sugar. It doesn't seem to mess up my sleep like booze, but I definitely notice it the day after I have that big bowl of ice cream or giant slice of cake. A big enough sugar binge feels pretty close to a hangover for me now.
- born1989 7mo ago
  This must be a marketing campaign bit
  - chasd00 6mo ago
    i was afraid someone would think that, if i just said "half-life" they wouldn't know what i'm talking about. If i just said "have a beer" then it wouldn't be doing justice to the one i really like. oh well :)
bitexploder 7mo ago
For a long time with sleep studies they would give participants a single unit of alcohol. Alcohol has always trashed sleep, even when younger.
raducu 7mo ago
>The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become. Back when I was 20 I had a drinking problem. One time I drank so much that I passed out sitting at a table. Woke up with friends having stripped my clothes and washed them. I woke up at 9AM, feeling 100% sober, just anxious about my 20 missed calls from my mom. I got a bit drunk at about 33 and next day I thought I was dying. That's how I learnt what hangovers were. Again, at around 25, I helped my brother in-law move bee hives all night, including some 8 hours of driving. Went straight to work and in the evening I had dinner with my wife at a restaurant. Now I crash in bed at 9PM and if I'm lucky, I also sleep (but quite often I wake up at 2AM). Getting old(er) sucks, and I'm only 42 and I miss so much how nice being in my 20 something body felt all the time.
- aethrum 7mo ago
  do you exercise?
  - raducu 6mo ago
    No, I don't. I know I should.
- tboughen 7mo ago
  I’m 41 and my body is nicer to be in than when I was 25. Like you, I have much less youthful buffer that shrugs off poor sleep or overindulgence, but I have much more knowledge and much better habits. Daily habits: better nutrition (based on Bryan Johnson’s super veggie and nutty pudding), stretching, weak points warmup, proper oral hygiene, regular bedtime Weekly habits: 4x gym, 3x run, 2x weighted walk I have used ChatGPT to work out a program that is helping me to overcome injuries and niggles while building strength and cardio. I’m 3 months into my latest training schedule, and it’s unreasonably effective.
  - alternatex 7mo ago
    Reminder for anyone that doesn't know better: having good sleep is dependent on a few minor lifestyle adjustments. Like avoiding heavy (or any outside of fruit and vegetable) meals and exercise a few hours before going to bed. And avoiding caffeine after noon. You don't need to be a health champion to have good sleep.
djsamseng 7mo ago
“Their brains… look like small walnuts inside their skull… There's so much atrophy that happens with an alcohol soaked brain chronically that I would say that's, you know, far and away, the most common source of brain damage” - Dr. Matthew Macdouglas head neurosurgeon at Neurolink on the Huberman podcast starting at 1:40:00
dkarl 7mo ago
If my Oura ring can be trusted, alcohol doesn't interfere with my total amount of sleep or my REM sleep, but it reduces my deep sleep drastically and can even result in me getting zero deep sleep, which hasn't happened a single time without alcohol.
RobRivera 7mo ago
I went sober dor this precise reason. It's a quality of life thing.

block_dagger 7mo ago

Biphasic/polyphasic sleeper here (not by choice). Makes the work week a lot trickier. I will be reading through this article for insight on how to get the most out of my situation.

ButlerianJihad 7mo ago

I am recently diagnosed with Type II Diabetes. The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them. I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause. One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse. I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go. It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL. Eat right, kids; eat well or be cursed for life!

kshacker 7mo ago
IMO Type 2 diabetes is manageable. My father struggled with it for decades and his last few years were not great. Having those same genes, I've spent a lot of time reading and following the data. My take is that T2 is quite manageable. Even reversible, if you focus on it. "Reversible" doesn't mean a lifelong cure, but you can push out your health days by a decade. There are all kinds of solutions that work. High Protein, Mediterranean, Atkins, or even High Carb (the "good" kind). The breakdown usually happens in the "cocktail" of foods. Our bodies are not hybrid engines; we can not switch fuels mid-stream and expect optimal health. You have to pick a poison, let's say, a protein-based diet—and stick to it. Then exercise and intermittent fasting (IF) are force multipliers. I did strict IF for a year, but I have fallen off the wagon lately, only manage 3-4 days of IF a week. The difference in how I feel is stark. What worked for me was something called "Lalit Kapoor" diet — basically a WFPB/vegan approach with heavy green juicing and fasting. My failure was primarily due to social friction. My family eats very differently. Making a special effort for every single meal eventually made me start taking the easy way. I still follow it but I wish I could be 100% rather than 80% and which is where all diets fail.
mannanj 7mo ago
Hope you find some relief. I was experiencing similar symptoms in college, and self cured myself through: - diet shift and adjustment, keto and then carnivore specifically - shifting breathing to the nose: the sympathetic nervous system is activated through mouth-breathing, that leads to stress and anxiety all around bogging up everything from the digestive system, lymphatic system and more - happy to share more, my sleep schedule works best by following the sun and guarding myself from artificial lights exposure after happy to share more as stated.

LZ_Khan 7mo ago

Is the author suggesting people to have to live with going through a phase of being nocturnal? In the free running algorithm, we're supposed to sleep 15 minutes later each day until we're falling asleep at like 9AM? That's just incompatible with modern life right?

veritat14 7mo ago
I believe Mathew Walker writes in 'Why we sleep' that people's natural circadian cycle varies but on average is 24h and 15 minutes. But yeah sounds pretty inconvenient for most people.
the_pwner224 7mo ago
That part didn't make any sense to me either. Yes, the natural circadian cycle in a vacuum is slightly over 24 hours, but exposure to light keeps it synced to the normal 24-hour day. If you free run sleep your cycle should stay locked to 24 hours, just like it has always been with our ancestors who lived without artificial light.
Unai 7mo ago
I once tried an extreme version of this. I became single and I already didn't have a fixed work schedule, so other than societal convention there was no reason for me to adhere to any regular day-night cycle. So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed. It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach. The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.
- dingdongditchme 7mo ago
  Hopefully you made it out of it, but I have to say that was a hilarious read! As not a stranger to pseudorandom sleep cycles I can relate.

sminchev 7mo ago

How can I explain to my 6 months old girl that we all need to sleep :D This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane.... BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them. You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)

lazystone 7mo ago
How do I explain this to 15yo teenager?..
- IAmBroom 7mo ago
  Wait 10 years. Minimum.
VanTodi 7mo ago
In my area there is a saying like "it takes a village to raise a child". i believe that a good social network is not only important for the kid, but for the parents too. it helps so much to have a partner, grandparents, aunts/uncles, who can look over the kid just for a hour or 2, so you can get your rest. And its usually fun for the kids too. Now that i have 2 kids, a loving wife and 2 families around me, i have the highest respect for all the single moms/dads out there.
- CalRobert 7mo ago
  As immigrants with no local network, having kids is basically putting yourself under house arrest for a decade or so. You can post bail (pay a babysitter) for occasional reprieve. I mean sure you can go do outings with kids, but for most of them, do you really want to? I know mine aren't particularly enthralled by trips to the Rijksmuseum. I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...

logicprog 7mo ago

I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.

mettamage 7mo ago
I have as a kid. It might help you. As a kid, I instinctively (and later also consciously) have trained myself to become lucid while dreaming. When I become lucid, I gain some power. Then I trained myself to be more powerful in dreams. For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight. I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points. Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god). That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.
- logicprog 7mo ago
  I've trained myself to have powers in the dream, but I rarely, fully know that it's a dream, so it doesn't really help when it's all psychological.
  - mettamage 7mo ago
    You can train for that. There are enough guides on the internet how to do it

sudosteph 7mo ago

I think nearly everyone should be screened for sleep apnea. The at-home test you wear on your finger is so cheap - it doesn't make sense not to do it for anyone who has any issues with sleep or tiredness in the day. I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested. Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason. The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight. Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.

weakfish 7mo ago
My comment is more of a complaint than a discussion so apologies, but I was disappointed recently because I did at an at home test and scored borderline. I was hopeful that it would be sleep apnea so I could go about solving my bad sleep, but a lab test showed conclusively that I didn’t have it. I got checked out initially because I mentioned to my sister that I didn’t recall the last time I’d woken up and felt refreshed all day, even with 8+ hours, and she said “…that’s not good, get that checked out.” Back to the drawing board :(
- smj-edison 7mo ago
  Chronic tiredness can be such a hard thing to figure out, sorry you've been going through that! Is it sleepiness (as in can fall asleep at any point of the day), or fatigue (as in non-restorative sleep, brain fog, feeling exhausted, etc)? I've had chronic fatigue (non syndrome) for six years now, so I'm pretty familiar with how obnoxiously long it takes to get answers. Some things to look into: Do a full polysomnogram with MSLT: this will check for sleep apnea, restless leg syndrome, narcolepsy, and idiopathic hypersomnia Look into ME/CFS if you have post exertional malaise (pretty much you cross some invisible line in exertion followed by a delayed crash). Look into MCAS if you also have strange allergy symptoms. I have MCAS, though tbh I didn't really have that many symptoms until I looked at Dr. Afrin's free chapter on MCAS. Maybe fibromyalgia, but you didn't mention muscle pain, so it probably doesn't apply. Obviously depression can cause somatic symptoms, so that's worth checking, but I think people jump to that conclusion too soon. Note that a lot of these conditions don't really have tests, so it's really tricky to get a diagnosis. It takes finding a doctor who's willing to recognize them and give a diagnosis.

amunozo 7mo ago

As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?

nsbk 7mo ago
Fellow Spaniard here. Our ancestors were definitely onto something! I think the most important thing when it comes to napping is to show up: find a comfortable spot, use an eye mask, and set a timer for whatever time you have (I typically do something between 10 to 30 minutes). Just close your eyes and don’t open them until the alarm goes off. I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them. I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot. The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra. I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors! [0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLBAPp_W-VNZTi8 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLB...
- amunozo 7mo ago
  Thank you so much for your detailed answer! I definitely try to show up, but I am an anxious person and sometimes trying to nap makes me even more anxious. However, it is true that even when I don't manage to sleep it helps relaxing me and giving me some extra energy. I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!

laxpri 7mo ago

is this jesus of sleep

arduanika 7mo ago
Closer to the Time Cube of sleep! It's an impressive achievement, really. Here's a shorter page of his I've found more digestible: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia

alvsilvao 7mo ago

Putting my laptop to sleep unfortunately didn't increase its memory

NolanMarrow 7mo ago

I really liked the idea of "Free running sleep". Not sure how feasable would be to make it part of my routine TBH. I need to adhere to external schedules (job, family). Maybe someday I'll give it a honest try!

tsumnia 7mo ago

justgetflux.com Helped me start going to bed at 10pm

pimlottc 7mo ago
Clickable link: https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/

Antibabelic 7mo ago

> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock. This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.

thisisauserid 7mo ago
>> sleep only when you are very tired This flies in the face of all sleep research done at the Stanford Health Care’s Sleep Medicine Center. You're confusing treatment for insomnia with recommendations for general sleep hygiene.
DiffTheEnder 7mo ago
Wake up without an alarm clock is surely beneficial regardless of when you go to sleep?
- sd9 7mo ago
  I'm sure it is. It's difficult with a full time job though. Yes, in principle it can be made easier by going to bed earlier... but that's not simple either.
- integralid 7mo ago
  I try to explain this to my wife, my baby, and my dayjob but they refuse to listen.
dbvn 7mo ago
or have even a single obligation in the morning
dkarl 7mo ago
Advice like this turns almost everybody's normal state into a disorder. "Go to sleep only when you are very tired" is a child's approach to sleep, it's what we all want to do, and by adulthood we learn that it's counterproductive. But we still want it so much that we regularly test it and are reminded why we don't operate that way. It reminds me of the intuitive eating folks who say, "Ignore standard diet advice, just listen to your body and feed it what it knows you need," but then when you overeat, they say, "You aren't listening properly, you aren't in tune with your body." Then if you ask, "How will I know when I'm in tune with my body and listening to it properly?" they say, "When what it asks for matches standard diet advice."

gitowiec 7mo ago

The most important thing about sleep I learned is to fall asleep at the same moment of every day. Make it 22:00 or 23:00 or 00:00. Whatever is comfortable for you. But you have to stick to the chosen hour as hard as you can. Every day from now on it has to be that hour. After you get used to that you will notice a much better effect of the sleep.

jelsisi 7mo ago
I agree with how important this is, but for me, the most significant improvement in my sleep has been pushing my dinner very early, ~6 hrs before bed, and having it be my smallest meal of the day. I usually feel quite hungry about an hour before bed but if I get over that hump my resting heart rate is much lower at night and my appetite the next day is much lower. It was validating to see Bryan Johnson sharing the same findings on x.
- meeshmuesh 7mo ago
  I think one of the underrated things that Bryan does is he regularly emphasises how central sleep needs to be in your health. I haven't heard that consistant message drilled in by anyone else and it helped me realise how a lot of the things i found difficult to recruit energy/discipline/motivation were related to the low priority I placed on sleep.
  - titanomachy 7mo ago
    Peter Attia is also big on sleep. But it sits alongside 3-4 other things of similar importance in his messaging.
glerk 7mo ago
Strongly disagree and you should refrain from trying to give universal advice on these matters. I never had a 24h circadian rhythm. The only way to fall asleep at the same moment every day for me would be to medicate myself. I am very happy and productive when I am allowed to "rotate around the clock" and the worst periods of my life were when I was forced to be on a strict schedule. The most important thing with any health issue is to be aware of your own body.

AheadFin 7mo ago

The explanation of the memory consolidation process during sleep was surprising and made me rethink my habit of using alarms and cutting back on sleep for overtime work.

itissid 7mo ago

Has someone found that they have better alcohol "recovery" if they are pursuing intense or at least regular(at least 3x a week) stamina building exercise like running/swimming?

hombre_fatal 7mo ago
Unfortunately not in my case. I wouldn't be surprised if hangovers are worse if you're fit. But what I've found is that forcing a run when hung over does help me move past it. Maybe it helps expel the metabolites from my body.

deleted 7mo ago

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hnthrowaway0315 7mo ago

I think a lot of it has to do with mental status, which can be concluded with one sentence -- "Are you happy with your life, and if not do you have a clear path to reach that?". People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true. I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months. Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.

manuisin 7mo ago
this mirrors my experience too. I’ll just add that some times taking a complete break from work is necessary to find the mental clarity to reach the state where learning, stability and happiness are possible.
- hnthrowaway0315 7mo ago
  Yeah I think that helps, too. Unfortunately most of us cannot do that. I found a few days is not enough. At least 2 weeks.
  - mothballed 7mo ago
    I used to be able to do this but after having kids they always seem to reset the clock before you can make any headway. I still have not figured out how to regain the clarity. There is no substitute for unobstructed long stretches of time to focus on something. Being unexpectedly interrupted or put on a schedule just ruins it.

deleted 7mo ago

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Anonyneko 7mo ago

If only I knew how to have full non-interrupted restorative sleep. It seems that my body started losing that skill about 20 years ago, and lost it altogether about 6 years ago. The falling asleep time is a lottery and I'm always waking up after the first stage, often a few more times after that. Tried all kinds of sleep medication, but by now I've forgotten what it's like to not be half-asleep and unable to concentrate throughout the day (with loud tinnitus and a soupy feel in the brain to boot). Really sucks out any and all enjoyment from life, I can't even find the energy to watch TV shows anymore, let alone read books. I haven't learned anything fundamentally new at work for years too (inertia helps with daily routine).

pillefitz 6mo ago
I've been struggling with early waking for a few months, and recently experienced improvements by meditating before bed. Have you ruled out sleep apnea?

djeastm 7mo ago

How are we meant to read and discuss this page? It's huge! It seems like we're all just looking at the title and talking about our sleep habits.

nunodonato 7mo ago
thats what I was thinking when reading the comments. How the heck have people had time to read it all and comment? I guess not :) Also, I'm really curious to know if some of it is no longer valid. 14 years is a long time in science
integralid 7mo ago
Most people are also n apparently completely off-topic, as in giving advice completely contradictory to the OP (for example "always go to sleep at the same time alway") without even acknowledging that.

hani1808 7mo ago

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gstrike 7mo ago

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mannanj 7mo ago

Best bullshit and industry cutting phrase for better sleep: Follow the sun. Follow the sun for a fixed reference point for when to wake up, and for when to sleep, and guard yourself from artificial lights like it's your professional job. Bryan Johnson says to treat sleep like a professional job, and I take it further: break the standard industrial-factory based paradigm around sleep, work and life and say no to the clock based wellbeing-adversarial system. edit: hours and minutes cannot replace our natural light-based circadian rhythm that evolved for millions of years entraining our hormones and energy cycles around the sun's light.

glerk 7mo ago

I got 4h of sleep last night which is about my normal average at this time of the year, and I have 0 regrets about it. I also don't sleep at a regular time every day. If I have no other obligations, I naturally let it shift forward (what the article calls "delayed sleep phase"). I am most unhappy when I HAVE TO use an alarm clock and break my own patterns. Last night, I naturally went to sleep right before sunrise and I woke up 4 hours later. To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.

kanbankaren 7mo ago
0 regrets now doesn't mean 0 regrets decades later.
- glerk 7mo ago
  That's totally fair, and I'll cross that bridge when I get there like everyone else :) My philosophy is: either I'll live to benefit from technology that can repair the damage caused by aging, in which case health micro-optimizations early in life are not that important, OR this won't be achieved within my lifetime, in which case I prefer a short life with concentrated happiness, vitality and intensity in my youth.
  - kanbankaren 7mo ago
    There is some new scientific finding that in deep sleep, fluids from the brain drain out and if that flushing doesn't happen, it might lead to Alzheimer's disease. You should at least monitor your deep sleep using a smartwatch. Less than 1.5 hours and I would be worried.

profstasiak 7mo ago

I stopped drinking caffeine and sudenly I remember everything

vector_spaces 7mo ago

I have a somewhat rarely diagnosed circadian rhythm disorder called delayed sleep phase disorder. It is difficult to get diagnosed, especially as sleep clinics have been targets of private equity firms which convert them to CPAP shops which only diagnose sleep apnea and whose patients never interact with an MD. However it is likely to be underdiagnosed given the stigma around sleep challenges, at least in the sense that if you make any effort to get enough sleep with such a sleep disorder, you tend to be pegged as lazy, irresponsible, unreliable, etc In any event, I agree with something implicit in the article, namely that most people have a degree of this, but the severity is variable. Mine has been fairly extreme, and while diagnosis enables disability accommodations, it is very fraught navigating most workplaces with this particular disability and you are essentially forced to choose between having any kind of upward mobility and getting enough sleep at night. Thankfully the past two years or so I've been getting much more sleep since optimizing more for that. But anyway, if you are navigating sleep challenges you should get a sleep study, sure, but also be aware that your local sleep clinic is in all likelihood only nominally a sleep clinic. That is, it does not know how to diagnose and treat more complex sleep issues and probably doesn't want to.

numeri 7mo ago
I have DSPD as well, and was pleasantly surprised to see how much of the article discussed DSPD. That being said, I do think a lot of what the author is saying flies right in the face of traditional advice, esp. the suggestion that we should all just free-sleep and rotate around the clock. I personally find myself happiest when I'm entrained to the 24-hour cycle, but at my own natural offset. Whenever I've been cycling the day it's felt miserable, uncontrollable and exhausting. To be fair, the author did claim that you can fully solve this by completely cutting out after-dark electronics, but I've tried pretty intensely to do exactly that for extended periods in the past, and didn't see any progress. I do sleep amazingly when camping, though, and the delay is lesser than normal (still definitely there).

xiphmont 7mo ago

Hm, no, non-24 is not just a severe version of DSPS. Or rather he seems to be saying DSPS is really just a less severe version of non-24. I have it. What I've learned from my doc (a researcher in the field): It's primarily a specific genetic mutation that affects many of they body's cyclic timers, but relevant here is that the circadian feedback loop is no longer able to lock to a 24 hour day/night cycle at all. The timer technically works. You're perfectly sensitive to light/dark, but you're hitting a PLL with inputs faster than its ability to make meaningful adjustments. That's not the case with DSPS. Sleep apnea diagnosis is relevant here, it also breaks the breathing reflex timer. Imagine finding out at age 40 that you've not, in fact, slept more than a few minutes at a time your entire life, because you wake up just enough to take a breath every 3 minutes or so when a secondary suffocation reflex goes off.

slowhadoken 7mo ago

I see a lot of people that smoke marijuana being off balance psychologically and I believe it’s because weed inhabits R.E.M. and they smoke it to go to sleep which creates a viscous cycle.

dang 7mo ago

Related. Others? Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 - Oct 2020 (121 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 - Aug 2019 (4 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 - Oct 2018 (254 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 - Dec 2015 (27 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 - Oct 2015 (1 comment) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 - Feb 2013 (121 comments) Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 - March 2010 (61 comments) Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 - March 2008 (1 comment)

3l3ktr4 7mo ago

eat sleep rave repeat

dysoco 7mo ago

I've never had sleep issues but lately I've been in a bit of a rut. I've always maintained a sleep schedule of going to bed around 00/01hs (not that uncommon in my country) and waking up around 8/9am. However lately I've been arriving VERY tired from work around 19hs. It's very easy to fall asleep right after work and some days I go to sleep for a few hours but then I wake up super late for dinner around 10/11pm and completely screw my schedule, last night I couldn't sleep until 4am or so. Most days I don't sleep and power through since I need to buy groceries, cook, do other stuff around the house etc. but even so after dinner around 9/10pm or so I become very active, I don't get sleepy and I can't easily sleep until 2/3am. I've tried with a bit of melatonin, magnesium, etc. Moreover I've bought an apple watch and discovered I have quite some interruptions during the night, so I'm sleeping around 5-6 hours if I don't sleep at a crazy time, a bit less than what I expected. Any suggestions? I don't know if taking that nap when I come back from work is helpful or not, usually I don't but I do feel quite tired during that time so I wonder if it's the natural stuff to do to try and go to sleep.

fy20 7mo ago
How is your physical activity? I used to get really tired at work after lunch, and after I started regularly going to the gym it fixed that. My energy levels throughout the day are now a lot more stable. Didn't fix my insomnia though :-)
- dysoco 6mo ago
  Yeah barely anything except living in a walkable city and walking every day. Possibly it would be ideal to go to the gym around 7pm or so after work and get some energy there, I'd probably need to try it but I feel too tired and lazy after work heh.
joveian 6mo ago
I have multiple severe sleep disorders including non-24 and insomnia so it is hard to tell how my experiences match most people but hopefully this might help some. My sense is that when I sleep only a few hours then can't get back to sleep for at least three hours it means my body is interpreting the sleep as a siesta rather than night sleep (unless it is after sunrise). Non-delayed release melatonin makes this more likely for me. I don't think delayed release makes it less likely (at least not right away) but might at least not make it more likely and longer term it seems to help make it possible for me to sleep on a closer to fixed schedule. Magnesium is one of the few that helps me stay asleep though I suspect what might help you most is if you could take a nap earlier in the day. While most people these days already do this part I've found that caffeine in the morning makes it much less likely that I'll have this issue (I can't have caffeine in the afternoon or too much theobromine even in the morning multiple days in a row or I will have trouble sleeping; I imagine the helpful effect will be much less in people who are desensitized). It sounds like you have a delayed circadian rhythm. The Circadian Sleep Disorders Network has some good info: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ I don't agree with many of the suggestions in this article. Advancing your sleep schedule to try to shift your sleep earlier is particularly harmful and can trigger non-24. In my case, part of my body seems to be synchronized with light and part rotates around the clock leaving me rarely all that functional. It is a disabling condition. A somewhat delayed circadian rhythm seems to usually be much less disabling but may also cause similar trouble if severely delayed (many people don't have as much trouble with non-24 as I do, though I didn't have as much trouble for the first 15ish years either). Waking up at the same time every day is another thing that can help stabilize the circadian rhythm (though I also think it is best to avoid alarm clocks most of the time). Going to sleep at the same time is less important; it is better to go to sleep early if you need more sleep than to sleep in. I think it is best to avoid medication if possible. What I am using now seems to be working the best of anything I've tried but it has only been six months. At night I take 300mcg 6-hour delayed release melatonin, 250mg delayed release magnesium (though I think non-delayed may work just as well), 2.5mg baclofen (the small amount keeps it working with daily use and using it with magnesium works better than either alone), and 8-9mg diphenhydramine (not enough to help me get to sleep but just for the circadian effect, either 1/3 of a 25mg pill or 3.5mL of 12.5mg/5mL liquid). In the morning I usually drink some tea and take .5 tsp (2.5mL) D-ribose which seems to help quite a bit (I had previously tried it without noticing a positive effect but I think I may have only used it later in the day). In the US there seem to be many companies that package D-ribose but only one company that makes it.

otikik 7mo ago

> Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock. If I did that I would go to bed a 5 in the morning and wake up at 2pm, sir.

jdironman 7mo ago
Could be a symptom of poor stimulation regulation. I know that's the problem in my case. if I have a phone, screen, or even a book in front of me I can stay up until tomorrow. But, if I shut it all down (roughly 30 to 60 mins) before I actually plan to try and sleep it absolutely causes the tiredness to kick in. I will say there are varying degrees of stimulation. Computer use > TV > Book reading > Music > silence and boredom. At least that is the order in which I shutdown on the nights I have the motivation to do so.
- otikik 6mo ago
  Thanks. What you say makes sense

pedalpete 7mo ago

I haven't had a chance to read the entire article, but I can already tell that much of how the author viewed sleep in 2012 is not inline with current understandings in sleep science, though much of the wearable and sleep industry still promote this outdated view. Disclosure: I am the co-founder & CEO of neurotech/sleeptech company https://affectablesleep.com https://affectablesleep.com The post talks about "sleep deprivation" which most people, and most studies, view as reduced sleep time. The latest research shows that sleep regularity is a better predictor of health (via morbidity) than sleep duration, even when sleep duration is taken into account. This is on our blog with links to research [1] I have a few issues with the "sleep more" concept, and I often say that you wouldn't measure your diet based on how much time you spend chewing, so why do we think this is a good measure for sleep. The methodology for measuring sleep, particularly deep sleep, was defined in 1968 by the sleeping pattern 28 college aged men and 5 college aged women [2]. We are able to show that decreasing the Neural Function of Sleep, the vital processes of the brain that make sleep restorative, and specifically slow-wave activity, reduces the effectiveness of sleep without altering sleep time. We can also enhance the Neural Function of Sleep to improve health outcomes measured by memory, HRV, cortisol, immune function, and more [3] links to research. This isn't just limited to a bunch of lab studies. As we age, the Neural Function of Sleep naturally declines, and this decline is linked to age related metabolic health, cardiac health, and of course neurological diseases and particularly dementia and Alzhiemer's. Overly focusing on "just get more sleep time" doesn't solve the problem. To further the problem, people often blame sleep for their tiredness, when they have poor diet, don't exercise, and/or poor mental health (stress, burnout, depression, etc). You can complain all you want about the gas mileage on your car and try tuning your engine, etc, but if you've got flat tires, you're not going anywhere. Our work in neurotech and specifically sleep is focused on some of these issues, though I think the more important thing is for people to 1) Understand what sleep schedule works for YOU and focus on consistency and regularity. 2) If you're "tired" ask yourself if you are "tired" or "lethargic" is sleep really to blame? Or could there be other things that are impacting how you feel, or impacting how well you are sleeping. I equate what we know about sleep and the brain today as similar to what we knew about diet and exercise in the 70s. We knew it was important but we really didn't understand how it worked. What we will learn in the next decade will upend our current understanding and have a significant impact on health and longevity. [1] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-doesnt-depend https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-... [2] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/sleep-sciences-blind-spot-how-outdated https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/sleep-sciences-blind-spot... [3] https://affectablesleep.com/how-it-works#research https://affectablesleep.com/how-it-works#research

fnord77 7mo ago

this is the 'spaced repetition' guy?

laughing_abder 7mo ago

[flagged]

apt-apt-apt-apt 7mo ago

Who else constantly pushes their sleep time by 1-2 hours a day, and likes 9-10 hours of sleep? Also, these days it's nearly impossible to stay awake watching a show for more than 10-15 minutes while lying down in bed before a powerful wave of sleep knocks me out, which can be annoying when I want to watch a show.

ItsClo688 6mo ago

I am running a three-person team across three timezones has taught me that the hardest part isn't writing code at odd hours, it's the context-switching cost of partial sleep. You don't feel tired, you just feel slightly wrong all day. Decisions that should take 5 minutes take 30. The mental stability point rings true. When the product direction feels uncertain, sleep gets worse. When sleep gets worse, product decisions get fuzzier. Haven't fully solved this one.

rsanek 6mo ago

So funny to see the recommendation here (track bedtime/wake-time, compute your average cycle length, predict the next bedtime from it, and don't deviate in either direction) be similar to how spaced repetition is typically sold to people: high expectations from users, no affordances for flexibility. These kinds of systems are just not realistic unless you are willing to be a loner that can never deviate from their routine. I do agree that caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, sleeping pills, and (as much as we can) alarm clocks are all things to stay away from.