4 ms·

> fundamentally immoral to operate like that. err. no it isn't.

Nursie 14y ago
It is in my moral code - Availing yourself of a market and using the facilities and workforce of the UK, without chipping in your fair share (as decided by the people of that country). Sounds immoral to me.
- Jach 14y ago
  I'm sure if the UK precisely defined what they mean by "fair share", and enforced their own laws regarding companies paying their "fair share", these companies would pay it. Or leave and do business elsewhere. Trying to do business without paying the legally required tax would be illegal, and immoral in your system, but not immoral in any system that views forms of income taxes as evil. (There are a lot of those around.)
  - Nursie 14y ago
    There are indeed a lot of people who view income taxes as evil. Many, many people including a lot of people in the UK. But that doesn't stop them being thought of as a necessary evil, and avoidance as worse. It's quite clear what the intent of the tax laws is, and it's quite clear that announcing a loss to the tax office but a massive profit to your investors is at the very least duplicitous.
    - easytiger 14y ago
      > It's quite clear what the intent of the tax laws is, If it was then what they are doing would be illegal
      - Nursie 14y ago
        So in your mind there's never a loophole in a law or a conflict between the law as intended and the law as written or enacted by the courts? Interesting worldview there...
        easytiger 14y ago
        tax is a robbery anyway. We only pay it because the government will take away our personal freedoms if they didn't receive payment. Do you honestly think if tax was 100% voluntary people would willingly donate without being coerced into doing it?
- CompiledCode 14y ago
  I agree. It's stunning to me that a bunch of executives and lawyers sat together and decided, we are going to take advantage of the infrastructure and workforce in the UK, but will avoid paying any taxes there, using these clever shenanigans. And because it saves money and is in the interest of the company, it's okay. That most ordinary people would agree that this is the right approach tells volumes about the society we live in.
- easytiger 14y ago
  > It is in my moral code Someone out there has a moral code that encourages stoning women to death. Doesn't mean that has got anything to do with anything being as it is a vague and meaningless concept that doesn't inform governance. > Availing yourself of a market By which you mean acting as a VAT collection body and sending that money to the treasury for transactions within that market that occured under your business. > the facilities and workforce of the UK Would you rather the roads were empty because the people of the UK had no jobs? There are ways to address this issue as discussed endlessly. But the last thing this is is immoral. It may not be just nor fair, but those do no interact with the morality of a benign government and their laws and regulations. It doesn't help the argument but it is rhetoric that is being thrown around that as much as anything hinders progress on this issue
  - Nursie 14y ago
    Someone out there has a moral code... I didn't claim morality was objective, no need to behave as if I did. By which you mean acting as a VAT collection body... What are you trying to say here? That because they collect VAT that's ok and they should be exempt from other taxes? Would you rather the roads were empty because the people of the UK had no jobs? False dichotomy. It's not the ability to move profits abroad that keeps people employed in the UK, arguably it sucks money out of the country and is a net loss to our economy.
    - burke 14y ago
      > I didn't claim morality was objective, no need to behave as if I did. > it is fundamentally immoral to operate like that. Sounds pretty objectively-stated to me. Count me in the camp that disagrees with you. Normal people do all sorts of perfectly legal tricks to pay less income tax. They're not cheating; they're just paying the minimum they're legally required to pay. Same deal for business. Whatever they can get away with without breaking any laws is the minimum requirement. Paying extra tax out of some patriotic duty is illogical, as is not taking advantage of the perfectly-legal loopholes found. It is not up to the businesses to pay more tax than the current legal framework requires; it's up to lawmakers to amend the tax code so that 'undesirable' loopholes are closed. Businesses act to maximize profits. There is nothing immoral about this.

It is in my moral code - Availing yourself of a market and using the facilities and workforce of the UK, without chipping in your fair share (as decided by the people of that country). Sounds immoral to me.

Jach 14y ago
I'm sure if the UK precisely defined what they mean by "fair share", and enforced their own laws regarding companies paying their "fair share", these companies would pay it. Or leave and do business elsewhere. Trying to do business without paying the legally required tax would be illegal, and immoral in your system, but not immoral in any system that views forms of income taxes as evil. (There are a lot of those around.)
- Nursie 14y ago
  There are indeed a lot of people who view income taxes as evil. Many, many people including a lot of people in the UK. But that doesn't stop them being thought of as a necessary evil, and avoidance as worse. It's quite clear what the intent of the tax laws is, and it's quite clear that announcing a loss to the tax office but a massive profit to your investors is at the very least duplicitous.
  - easytiger 14y ago
    > It's quite clear what the intent of the tax laws is, If it was then what they are doing would be illegal
    - Nursie 14y ago
      So in your mind there's never a loophole in a law or a conflict between the law as intended and the law as written or enacted by the courts? Interesting worldview there...
      - easytiger 14y ago
        tax is a robbery anyway. We only pay it because the government will take away our personal freedoms if they didn't receive payment. Do you honestly think if tax was 100% voluntary people would willingly donate without being coerced into doing it?
CompiledCode 14y ago
I agree. It's stunning to me that a bunch of executives and lawyers sat together and decided, we are going to take advantage of the infrastructure and workforce in the UK, but will avoid paying any taxes there, using these clever shenanigans. And because it saves money and is in the interest of the company, it's okay. That most ordinary people would agree that this is the right approach tells volumes about the society we live in.
easytiger 14y ago
> It is in my moral code Someone out there has a moral code that encourages stoning women to death. Doesn't mean that has got anything to do with anything being as it is a vague and meaningless concept that doesn't inform governance. > Availing yourself of a market By which you mean acting as a VAT collection body and sending that money to the treasury for transactions within that market that occured under your business. > the facilities and workforce of the UK Would you rather the roads were empty because the people of the UK had no jobs? There are ways to address this issue as discussed endlessly. But the last thing this is is immoral. It may not be just nor fair, but those do no interact with the morality of a benign government and their laws and regulations. It doesn't help the argument but it is rhetoric that is being thrown around that as much as anything hinders progress on this issue
- Nursie 14y ago
  Someone out there has a moral code... I didn't claim morality was objective, no need to behave as if I did. By which you mean acting as a VAT collection body... What are you trying to say here? That because they collect VAT that's ok and they should be exempt from other taxes? Would you rather the roads were empty because the people of the UK had no jobs? False dichotomy. It's not the ability to move profits abroad that keeps people employed in the UK, arguably it sucks money out of the country and is a net loss to our economy.
  - burke 14y ago
    > I didn't claim morality was objective, no need to behave as if I did. > it is fundamentally immoral to operate like that. Sounds pretty objectively-stated to me. Count me in the camp that disagrees with you. Normal people do all sorts of perfectly legal tricks to pay less income tax. They're not cheating; they're just paying the minimum they're legally required to pay. Same deal for business. Whatever they can get away with without breaking any laws is the minimum requirement. Paying extra tax out of some patriotic duty is illogical, as is not taking advantage of the perfectly-legal loopholes found. It is not up to the businesses to pay more tax than the current legal framework requires; it's up to lawmakers to amend the tax code so that 'undesirable' loopholes are closed. Businesses act to maximize profits. There is nothing immoral about this.