5 ms·

So you'd be cool with us crowdsourcing a film crew to follow you and your family around in public at all times?

otterley 6mo ago
Should I be concerned that you're stalking me, or that you know this information? The former is illegal, the latter is not.
- SecretDreams 6mo ago
  What's the difference in outcome between passive stalking by having sufficient cameras to capture everyone's actions at all times and active stalking with a film crew?
  - otterley 6mo ago
    Intimidation and threatening behavior. Context matters.
    - SecretDreams 6mo ago
      It is intimidating and threatening to most normal people for their wearabouts to be tracked at all times, regardless of the mode. Take this opportunity to learn that different people might have different thresholds to feel intimidated and that normal people don't feel comfortable being tracked at all times in real life, regardless of the mechanism by which it's being executed. In the above example, maybe you feel uncomfortable because the film crew is following you around in broad daylight? Would you feel better if they stayed hidden like the flock cameras in this example?
      - otterley 6mo ago
        They're not being tracked at all times in real life. They're potentially being tracked in public. I get that some people have a desire for privacy in public. And I'm even sympathetic to it. However, with the exception of the EU, privacy in public not is a right, nor is it a thing most people believe they possess. (And even ECHR Article 8 has a carveout for recording public activities for legitimate purposes.) If you think you should have such privacy rights, by all means, use the political process to achieve it. But note that it's not cost-free, and there will be tradeoffs.
        SecretDreams 6mo ago
        > They're potentially being tracked in public. In the film crew example, what is the difference if the crew is sufficiently far away from you such that you won't know? The paparazzi already do it to celebrities, seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path.
        otterley 6mo ago
        > seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path. They often do. What am I gonna do, run up to anyone who's taking cell phone videos that might have me in it and try to force them to stop recording? That would make me look unhinged.
        SecretDreams 6mo ago
        So, full circle, you're okay with a film crew recording you and your family in public at all times?
        otterley 6mo ago
        It’s a false equivalence. Passive surveillance cameras aren’t the same as having a bunch of annoying people trailing me, which gives rise to the concern for the personal safety of me and my family. So I reject the comparison.
        foltik 6mo ago
        What about if/when those cameras are no longer really passive, and everything they see gets autonomously compiled into a dossier on your activities and movements?
        otterley 6mo ago
        That’s a separate issue. Real time observation is one thing. What happens with the data afterwards is another. Now, the obvious response to that is “if you’re not watching, it can’t be recorded in the first place.” But we have legitimate reasons for wanting to observe public activities. The question is, how do we strike the right balance between legitimate use and abuse?

Should I be concerned that you're stalking me, or that you know this information? The former is illegal, the latter is not.

SecretDreams 6mo ago
What's the difference in outcome between passive stalking by having sufficient cameras to capture everyone's actions at all times and active stalking with a film crew?
- otterley 6mo ago
  Intimidation and threatening behavior. Context matters.
  - SecretDreams 6mo ago
    It is intimidating and threatening to most normal people for their wearabouts to be tracked at all times, regardless of the mode. Take this opportunity to learn that different people might have different thresholds to feel intimidated and that normal people don't feel comfortable being tracked at all times in real life, regardless of the mechanism by which it's being executed. In the above example, maybe you feel uncomfortable because the film crew is following you around in broad daylight? Would you feel better if they stayed hidden like the flock cameras in this example?
    - otterley 6mo ago
      They're not being tracked at all times in real life. They're potentially being tracked in public. I get that some people have a desire for privacy in public. And I'm even sympathetic to it. However, with the exception of the EU, privacy in public not is a right, nor is it a thing most people believe they possess. (And even ECHR Article 8 has a carveout for recording public activities for legitimate purposes.) If you think you should have such privacy rights, by all means, use the political process to achieve it. But note that it's not cost-free, and there will be tradeoffs.
      - SecretDreams 6mo ago
        > They're potentially being tracked in public. In the film crew example, what is the difference if the crew is sufficiently far away from you such that you won't know? The paparazzi already do it to celebrities, seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path.
        otterley 6mo ago
        > seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path. They often do. What am I gonna do, run up to anyone who's taking cell phone videos that might have me in it and try to force them to stop recording? That would make me look unhinged.
        SecretDreams 6mo ago
        So, full circle, you're okay with a film crew recording you and your family in public at all times?
        otterley 6mo ago
        It’s a false equivalence. Passive surveillance cameras aren’t the same as having a bunch of annoying people trailing me, which gives rise to the concern for the personal safety of me and my family. So I reject the comparison.
        foltik 6mo ago
        What about if/when those cameras are no longer really passive, and everything they see gets autonomously compiled into a dossier on your activities and movements?
        otterley 6mo ago
        That’s a separate issue. Real time observation is one thing. What happens with the data afterwards is another. Now, the obvious response to that is “if you’re not watching, it can’t be recorded in the first place.” But we have legitimate reasons for wanting to observe public activities. The question is, how do we strike the right balance between legitimate use and abuse?