5 ms·

Although I oppose the surveillance state, it's important to understand the motivations and incentives involved in the move toward Flock (and its eventual succes

by scarmig 6mo ago

Although I oppose the surveillance state, it's important to understand the motivations and incentives involved in the move toward Flock (and its eventual successors); until those are resolved, governments are going to be implementing Flock style programs with relatively tepid opposition. Police departments are seriously understaffed in many major cities, and officers are much less efficient than they used to be. This has led to the decline of the beat cop, who provided a kind of ambient authority that helped create, both a sense and reality, of public order. People really want the sense (even more than the reality!) of public order; without that, they will jump to faddish solutions that promise it, regardless of the data for or against it. The best counter to Flock is to provide alternatives to it, not just reject it while keeping the status quo going. We need a new, vitalized police culture, that shares mutual trust and engagement with the community.

aldebran 6mo ago
Police departments aren’t understaffed. It’s a priority problem not a lack of resources problem. I live in a tech heavy, wealthy city. It’s small. No violent crime. Barely any crime at all. There’s occasional break ins and car break ins. When this happens it’s a big deal. We had one last year. Everyone around has cameras. The cops refused to do anything about it. They refused to get recordings. The neighbor went door to door and gathered it herself. Cops refused to do anything even though you can see the car and the plates from multiple videos, multiple angles. Guess what the cops always have resources for? Hiding behind bushes and trees to ticket people going 5 over. Or at turns where they know they’ll get people before people see the cop car. Our HOA came together and asked the police department about this. They gave us bullshit about how custody of evidence etc is hard and even if they put people in jail, the lenient judges will let them go anyway. It was fucked up. Our HOA was going in hard about installing floc cameras everywhere. I had to fight hard not to get that done. One of the reasons I won wasn’t because privacy, it was because the cops literally were like unless we can directly pull video feeds from cameras, we won’t do much. And that access wasn’t available to those police department. At least at the time. There have been many other such stories I’ve personally witnessed in the cities I’ve lived in. Cops seem to have plenty of resources to bully people of color, seize assets and hide behind trees and bushes to ticket people, reduce the period of orange lights so people get more tickets etc. but never enough to actually do their jobs.
- tptacek 6mo ago
  I agree that police department staffing is less of a real issue than people claim it is, and that many departments have target staffing levels that are artificially elevated. But I'm struck by your comment about cops "hiding behind bushes to ticket people going 5 over", because in the ultra-ultra-progressive inner-ring Chicago suburb in which I live, one of the chief complaints about policing over the last couple years has been the lack of traffic enforcement.
  - lesuorac 6mo ago
    > one of the chief complaints about policing over the last couple years has been the lack of traffic enforcement. Which traffic enforcement though? I really do not like the fact that lefts on red are not enforced. I have numerous times seen people run a red-red light infront of a cop car with no enforcement. That said, people going 35 in a 30? Like I care. People weaving in between lanes? Yeah that seems much more dangerous.
  - gbear605 6mo ago
    On a daily basis, I see several cars that are going forty+ miles per hour over the speed limit, weaving between lanes. They go right past the cop and the cop doesn't care. Then someone going five over goes past the cop and the cop gives them a ticket. They go after the easy ones that fill their quotas, not the ones that actually make anyone safer.
  - JuniperMesos 6mo ago
    Are you taking the perspective of a car-driver risking getting a ticket for technically violating a traffic law, or a resident concerned about drivers technically violating traffic laws on the roads near where they live?
    - tptacek 6mo ago
      Neither, but what I'm describing is the resident concern.
- scarmig 6mo ago
TZubiri 6mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47124169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47124169 I've noted this in the age verification debate, and in the Android developer verification debate as well. Just denying the tradeoffs isn't productive, if tradeoffs affect others, just pushing your position disregarding the tradeoffs as fake or not important is divisive. In actuality I think that both parties become incentivized to solve the problems of the other group of people too, but as a centrist that position often gets pushback from both sides who seem to collaborate only indirectly from a place of adversarial competition and good vs evil framing, which I think is less productive than just recognizing the conflict and negotiating, but perhaps it's more engaging...
bearjaws 6mo ago
Most cities are spending 9-10 figures on Police staff, and somehow are understaffed? We simply aren't getting effective policing, and technology isn't the solution. Reality is cops have become police report writers, traffic accident helpers, and domestic abuse arbiters, that is over half the job.
- scarmig 6mo ago
  I agree with everything you say; my "police departments are understaffed" is too generic, and might be better stated as "too few resources are devoted to traditional beat policing." Which isn't to say that the other things are unnecessary or pointless, but it's a different set of skills.
  - nswest23 6mo ago
    [flagged]
- edmundsauto 6mo ago
  Law enforcement has also burned its goodwill with the public, making everything harder.
contagiousflow 6mo ago
If you take a look externally to other countries and cities, do you attribute their relative safety to good policing?
- gunsle 6mo ago
  No that would be cultural homogeneity and extremely low immigration.
  - contagiousflow 6mo ago
    Give "correlation between immigration and crime" one search. Or don't and just continue to hit on your bigoted dogwhistles
lopsotronic 6mo ago
To add to some of what others are saying, another problem is the measurement problem. DAs and police in general are almost universally evaluated based on arrest numbers. Only very rarely on actual crime rates, and never on something as abstract as quality of life or local revenues or property values. Gauging how good law enforcement is just by looking at arrest numbers is probably the wrong dial to be looking at.
gunsle 6mo ago
You’re not going to get nuanced law enforcement discussion on this site considering the commentary here is Reddit tier these days. I agree with you though - the mayor and city council here in Minneapolis continuously defunding the police and refusing to give them resources predictably led to sharp increases in crime. It’s baffling to me large liberal cities have demonized the police and gaslit their base into thinking everything is just fine.

by scarmig 6mo ago

aldebran 6mo ago

Police departments aren’t understaffed. It’s a priority problem not a lack of resources problem. I live in a tech heavy, wealthy city. It’s small. No violent crime. Barely any crime at all. There’s occasional break ins and car break ins. When this happens it’s a big deal. We had one last year. Everyone around has cameras. The cops refused to do anything about it. They refused to get recordings. The neighbor went door to door and gathered it herself. Cops refused to do anything even though you can see the car and the plates from multiple videos, multiple angles. Guess what the cops always have resources for? Hiding behind bushes and trees to ticket people going 5 over. Or at turns where they know they’ll get people before people see the cop car. Our HOA came together and asked the police department about this. They gave us bullshit about how custody of evidence etc is hard and even if they put people in jail, the lenient judges will let them go anyway. It was fucked up. Our HOA was going in hard about installing floc cameras everywhere. I had to fight hard not to get that done. One of the reasons I won wasn’t because privacy, it was because the cops literally were like unless we can directly pull video feeds from cameras, we won’t do much. And that access wasn’t available to those police department. At least at the time. There have been many other such stories I’ve personally witnessed in the cities I’ve lived in. Cops seem to have plenty of resources to bully people of color, seize assets and hide behind trees and bushes to ticket people, reduce the period of orange lights so people get more tickets etc. but never enough to actually do their jobs.

tptacek 6mo ago
I agree that police department staffing is less of a real issue than people claim it is, and that many departments have target staffing levels that are artificially elevated. But I'm struck by your comment about cops "hiding behind bushes to ticket people going 5 over", because in the ultra-ultra-progressive inner-ring Chicago suburb in which I live, one of the chief complaints about policing over the last couple years has been the lack of traffic enforcement.
- lesuorac 6mo ago
  > one of the chief complaints about policing over the last couple years has been the lack of traffic enforcement. Which traffic enforcement though? I really do not like the fact that lefts on red are not enforced. I have numerous times seen people run a red-red light infront of a cop car with no enforcement. That said, people going 35 in a 30? Like I care. People weaving in between lanes? Yeah that seems much more dangerous.
- gbear605 6mo ago
  On a daily basis, I see several cars that are going forty+ miles per hour over the speed limit, weaving between lanes. They go right past the cop and the cop doesn't care. Then someone going five over goes past the cop and the cop gives them a ticket. They go after the easy ones that fill their quotas, not the ones that actually make anyone safer.
- JuniperMesos 6mo ago
  Are you taking the perspective of a car-driver risking getting a ticket for technically violating a traffic law, or a resident concerned about drivers technically violating traffic laws on the roads near where they live?
  - tptacek 6mo ago
    Neither, but what I'm describing is the resident concern.
scarmig 6mo ago

TZubiri 6mo ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47124169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47124169 I've noted this in the age verification debate, and in the Android developer verification debate as well. Just denying the tradeoffs isn't productive, if tradeoffs affect others, just pushing your position disregarding the tradeoffs as fake or not important is divisive. In actuality I think that both parties become incentivized to solve the problems of the other group of people too, but as a centrist that position often gets pushback from both sides who seem to collaborate only indirectly from a place of adversarial competition and good vs evil framing, which I think is less productive than just recognizing the conflict and negotiating, but perhaps it's more engaging...

bearjaws 6mo ago

Most cities are spending 9-10 figures on Police staff, and somehow are understaffed? We simply aren't getting effective policing, and technology isn't the solution. Reality is cops have become police report writers, traffic accident helpers, and domestic abuse arbiters, that is over half the job.

scarmig 6mo ago
I agree with everything you say; my "police departments are understaffed" is too generic, and might be better stated as "too few resources are devoted to traditional beat policing." Which isn't to say that the other things are unnecessary or pointless, but it's a different set of skills.
- nswest23 6mo ago
  [flagged]
edmundsauto 6mo ago
Law enforcement has also burned its goodwill with the public, making everything harder.

contagiousflow 6mo ago

If you take a look externally to other countries and cities, do you attribute their relative safety to good policing?

gunsle 6mo ago
No that would be cultural homogeneity and extremely low immigration.
- contagiousflow 6mo ago
  Give "correlation between immigration and crime" one search. Or don't and just continue to hit on your bigoted dogwhistles

lopsotronic 6mo ago

To add to some of what others are saying, another problem is the measurement problem. DAs and police in general are almost universally evaluated based on arrest numbers. Only very rarely on actual crime rates, and never on something as abstract as quality of life or local revenues or property values. Gauging how good law enforcement is just by looking at arrest numbers is probably the wrong dial to be looking at.

gunsle 6mo ago

You’re not going to get nuanced law enforcement discussion on this site considering the commentary here is Reddit tier these days. I agree with you though - the mayor and city council here in Minneapolis continuously defunding the police and refusing to give them resources predictably led to sharp increases in crime. It’s baffling to me large liberal cities have demonized the police and gaslit their base into thinking everything is just fine.