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This is stupid thinking indulged in by westerners who were born in the lap of luxury. The market is incredibly moral. When my dad was born in a village in Bangl

by rayiner 7mo ago

This is stupid thinking indulged in by westerners who were born in the lap of luxury. The market is incredibly moral. When my dad was born in a village in Bangladesh, 1 out of 4 kids didn’t live past age 5. Thanks to market reforms and the resulting economic growth, child mortality in Bangladesh has plummeted. Bangladesh’s under-5 morality rate is better today than America’s was at the same time my dad was born. If India and Bangladesh hadn’t fucked around with socialism for decades after independence, we could have reached the same point many years ago. Millions of children would have been saved. Talk about immorality.

selimthegrim 7mo ago
Why don't you ask noted anti-socialism state Pakistan (pre and post-1971) how that's going?
- rayiner 7mo ago
  We have A/B comparisons in India and Bangladesh keeping the underlying culture constant. Pakistan’s problem seems to be a Pakistan thing.
  - danaris 7mo ago
    So..."Pakistan's problem is a Pakistan thing", unrelated to markets.... ...but Bangladesh's success is purely attributable to markets? It's not "a Bangladesh thing"? You might want to check your prejudices there.
    - rayiner 7mo ago
      There’s a Civilization-game style “tech tree” for cultural and social development. Some societies are further along in that development than others. Pakistan faces the same cultural problem as Afghanistan and parts of the middle east: in large parts of the country, extended kinship groups dominate society, precluding the development of civic institutions and functioning government. That’s not true for the whole country. Parts of Pakistan are culturally like India or Bangladesh: it has a long history of governance by central institutions, even if that governance is dysfunctional. Imagine if 50% of the U.S. population was Appalachians. The U.S. would be a much less successful country also.
      - deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
      - danaris 7mo ago
        > There’s a Civilization-game style “tech tree” for cultural and social development. ...I'ma stop you there. There really isn't. And you'll get a lot farther in life if you stop thinking of real people and their development and culture as video game abstractions.
        TimorousBestie 7mo ago
        > And you'll get a lot farther in life if you stop thinking of real people and their development and culture as video game abstractions. Oh, it’s far too late for that. As the kids say, he’s cooked. He’ll be complaining about hypothetical Appalachians invading New England or New York or the United States (all actual examples, see below) in the nursing home. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=rayiner%20appalachian&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
        rayiner 7mo ago
        I don’t understand. Do you (1) think Appalachia is great, or (2) you agree that Appalachia lags the rest of the U.S., but think that has nothing to do with how Appalachian parents socialize their children to behave what they teach their kids to value?
        selimthegrim 7mo ago
        Pakistan spent quite a bit on education in East Pakistan up until 1971. and I've even pointed you to the article in Prothom Alo where Bangladeshi experts admitted that but you do you. It's not like Ibn Khaldun didn't hit on similar points with asabiyya but saying we have A/B testing here is wild.
        TimorousBestie 7mo ago
        Incredible false dilemma that has nothing to do with my observation on your weird rhetorical fixations.
mhurron 7mo ago
You mean the Socialism that produces higher quality of life in Scandinavia as compared to to say the US where the oh so moral market decides if you weren't born into the upper end of society you deserve to die of disease and conditions that can be treated? The market is not moral, it is amoral and it serves those with the money to direct it.
- rayiner 7mo ago
  > You mean the Socialism that produces higher quality of life in Scandinavia as compared to to say the US where the oh so moral market decides if you weren't born into the upper end of society you deserve to die of disease and conditions that can be treated? Scandinavian countries have highly market oriented economies. Denmark and Norway are in the top 10 in Heritage Foundation’s economic freedom index and Sweden is #11. Capitalism is what generates the surplus to feed the socialists in Scandinavia.
  - mhurron 7mo ago
    Every single one of those economies are highly regulated to prevent 'the free market' deciding peoples lives. Without it, you get the US. You get the life your wealth dictates, if you're not wealthy, you didn't deserve life. Sweden's costs for insulin are over 10 times lower than that of the US, because the US let the free market decide and Sweden has a socialist political system. At a place I lived earlier, my neighbour got out of the hospital after heart surgery with a $100k medical bill that they never recovered from. My dad had heart surgery in Canada and left the hospital with a $150 parking bill. But no, please lets continue to try and argue the free market is moral and just.
    - rayiner 7mo ago
      > than that of the US, because the US let the free market decide and Sweden has a socialist political system. Sweden doesn’t achieve lower prices for insulin through “socialism” or regulation. In Sweden, middle class people tax themselves heavily to pay for insulin for poor people. It has nothing to do with free market versus socialism. It’s free-market capitalism with very high taxes on individuals and low taxes on capital and corporation. > But no, please lets continue to try and argue the free market is moral and just. It is just and moral. Before Sweden had the free market, it was poor as shit and one quarter of the population of Sweden came to America. Whatever socialism you think Sweden has now, it got only after becoming rich through capitalism.
datsci_est_2015 7mo ago
Amazing that advancements in Bangladeshi quality of life is due to only market forces! What an incredibly unique geopolitical phenomenon.
- rayiner 7mo ago
  It’s not unique at all! When my dad was a kid in the 1950s, Singapore, China, South Korea, and Taiwan were poor—all under $1,000 GDP per capita. They were a little ahead of Bangladesh but less than a factor of 2. The U.S. at the time was around $10,000. Today, Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea are rich, and China is getting there. Multiple dirt poor Asian countries getting rich within a few generations thanks to One Simple Trick!
worik 7mo ago
Bangladesh has done well, in difficult circumstances Market reforms helped. But those reforms could not have happened unless the state did sensible things Those same market reforms impoverished the entire middle class in New Zealand, where the state did not do sensible things (the reverse) Markets are good at fully allocating resources, which feudalism and central planning is not. But they also concentrate wealth into the hands of very few (that is what wrecked New Zealand's middle class) and it takes deliberate government policy to avert that.
- rayiner 7mo ago
  > Market reforms helped. But those reforms could not have happened unless the state did sensible things The state did almost nothing sensible! Bangladesh’s government, and the culture of the people more generally, is one of the most dysfunctional in the whole world. We just overthrew our government again! The free market is just a hardy plant growing in inhospitable ground as long as you don’t completely strangle it.
oa335 7mo ago
> Thanks to market reforms and the resulting economic growth, child mortality in Bangladesh has plummeted. I agree that market reforms have been great for most countries that adopt it, provided they have stable and competent institutions. However, it doesn't make sense to attribute decrease in child mortality to "market reforms". Cuba, Russia/USSR, North Korea all have seen huge declines in child mortality since 1960. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?end=2006&locations=CU-RU-KP-US-BD&start=1960 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?end=2006...

by rayiner 7mo ago

selimthegrim 7mo ago

Why don't you ask noted anti-socialism state Pakistan (pre and post-1971) how that's going?

rayiner 7mo ago
We have A/B comparisons in India and Bangladesh keeping the underlying culture constant. Pakistan’s problem seems to be a Pakistan thing.
- danaris 7mo ago
  So..."Pakistan's problem is a Pakistan thing", unrelated to markets.... ...but Bangladesh's success is purely attributable to markets? It's not "a Bangladesh thing"? You might want to check your prejudices there.
  - rayiner 7mo ago
    There’s a Civilization-game style “tech tree” for cultural and social development. Some societies are further along in that development than others. Pakistan faces the same cultural problem as Afghanistan and parts of the middle east: in large parts of the country, extended kinship groups dominate society, precluding the development of civic institutions and functioning government. That’s not true for the whole country. Parts of Pakistan are culturally like India or Bangladesh: it has a long history of governance by central institutions, even if that governance is dysfunctional. Imagine if 50% of the U.S. population was Appalachians. The U.S. would be a much less successful country also.
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
    - danaris 7mo ago
      > There’s a Civilization-game style “tech tree” for cultural and social development. ...I'ma stop you there. There really isn't. And you'll get a lot farther in life if you stop thinking of real people and their development and culture as video game abstractions.
      - TimorousBestie 7mo ago
        > And you'll get a lot farther in life if you stop thinking of real people and their development and culture as video game abstractions. Oh, it’s far too late for that. As the kids say, he’s cooked. He’ll be complaining about hypothetical Appalachians invading New England or New York or the United States (all actual examples, see below) in the nursing home. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=rayiner%20appalachian&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
        rayiner 7mo ago
        I don’t understand. Do you (1) think Appalachia is great, or (2) you agree that Appalachia lags the rest of the U.S., but think that has nothing to do with how Appalachian parents socialize their children to behave what they teach their kids to value?
        selimthegrim 7mo ago
        Pakistan spent quite a bit on education in East Pakistan up until 1971. and I've even pointed you to the article in Prothom Alo where Bangladeshi experts admitted that but you do you. It's not like Ibn Khaldun didn't hit on similar points with asabiyya but saying we have A/B testing here is wild.
        TimorousBestie 7mo ago
        Incredible false dilemma that has nothing to do with my observation on your weird rhetorical fixations.

mhurron 7mo ago

You mean the Socialism that produces higher quality of life in Scandinavia as compared to to say the US where the oh so moral market decides if you weren't born into the upper end of society you deserve to die of disease and conditions that can be treated? The market is not moral, it is amoral and it serves those with the money to direct it.

rayiner 7mo ago
> You mean the Socialism that produces higher quality of life in Scandinavia as compared to to say the US where the oh so moral market decides if you weren't born into the upper end of society you deserve to die of disease and conditions that can be treated? Scandinavian countries have highly market oriented economies. Denmark and Norway are in the top 10 in Heritage Foundation’s economic freedom index and Sweden is #11. Capitalism is what generates the surplus to feed the socialists in Scandinavia.
- mhurron 7mo ago
  Every single one of those economies are highly regulated to prevent 'the free market' deciding peoples lives. Without it, you get the US. You get the life your wealth dictates, if you're not wealthy, you didn't deserve life. Sweden's costs for insulin are over 10 times lower than that of the US, because the US let the free market decide and Sweden has a socialist political system. At a place I lived earlier, my neighbour got out of the hospital after heart surgery with a $100k medical bill that they never recovered from. My dad had heart surgery in Canada and left the hospital with a $150 parking bill. But no, please lets continue to try and argue the free market is moral and just.
  - rayiner 7mo ago
    > than that of the US, because the US let the free market decide and Sweden has a socialist political system. Sweden doesn’t achieve lower prices for insulin through “socialism” or regulation. In Sweden, middle class people tax themselves heavily to pay for insulin for poor people. It has nothing to do with free market versus socialism. It’s free-market capitalism with very high taxes on individuals and low taxes on capital and corporation. > But no, please lets continue to try and argue the free market is moral and just. It is just and moral. Before Sweden had the free market, it was poor as shit and one quarter of the population of Sweden came to America. Whatever socialism you think Sweden has now, it got only after becoming rich through capitalism.

datsci_est_2015 7mo ago

Amazing that advancements in Bangladeshi quality of life is due to only market forces! What an incredibly unique geopolitical phenomenon.

rayiner 7mo ago
It’s not unique at all! When my dad was a kid in the 1950s, Singapore, China, South Korea, and Taiwan were poor—all under $1,000 GDP per capita. They were a little ahead of Bangladesh but less than a factor of 2. The U.S. at the time was around $10,000. Today, Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea are rich, and China is getting there. Multiple dirt poor Asian countries getting rich within a few generations thanks to One Simple Trick!

worik 7mo ago

Bangladesh has done well, in difficult circumstances Market reforms helped. But those reforms could not have happened unless the state did sensible things Those same market reforms impoverished the entire middle class in New Zealand, where the state did not do sensible things (the reverse) Markets are good at fully allocating resources, which feudalism and central planning is not. But they also concentrate wealth into the hands of very few (that is what wrecked New Zealand's middle class) and it takes deliberate government policy to avert that.

rayiner 7mo ago
> Market reforms helped. But those reforms could not have happened unless the state did sensible things The state did almost nothing sensible! Bangladesh’s government, and the culture of the people more generally, is one of the most dysfunctional in the whole world. We just overthrew our government again! The free market is just a hardy plant growing in inhospitable ground as long as you don’t completely strangle it.

oa335 7mo ago

> Thanks to market reforms and the resulting economic growth, child mortality in Bangladesh has plummeted. I agree that market reforms have been great for most countries that adopt it, provided they have stable and competent institutions. However, it doesn't make sense to attribute decrease in child mortality to "market reforms". Cuba, Russia/USSR, North Korea all have seen huge declines in child mortality since 1960. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?end=2006&locations=CU-RU-KP-US-BD&start=1960 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?end=2006...