3 ms·

I'm a little confused on the ToS here. From what I gathered, running `claude -p <prompt>` on cron is fine, but putting it in my Telegram bot is a ToS violation

by andai 7mo ago

I'm a little confused on the ToS here. From what I gathered, running `claude -p <prompt>` on cron is fine, but putting it in my Telegram bot is a ToS violation (unless I use per-token billing) because it's a 3rd party harness, right? (`claude -p` being a trivial workaround for the "no 3rd party stuff on the subscription" rule) This Routines feature notably works with the subscription, and it also has API callbacks. So if my Telegram bot calls that API... do I get my Anthropic account nuked or not?

unshavedyak 7mo ago
Wait we can't use claude -p around other tools? What is the point of the JSON SDK then? Anthropic is confusing here, ugh. edit: And specifically i'm making an IDE, and trying to get ClaudeCode into it. I frankly have no clue when Claude usage is simply part of an IDE and "okay" and when it becomes a third party harness..
- grafmax 7mo ago
  They’re shooting themselves in the foot with these dumb restrictions.
  - taytus 7mo ago
    They are not dumb restrictions. They just don't have the compute. That is the dumb part. Dario did not secure the compute they need so now they are obviously struggling.
    - dgellow 7mo ago
      Their growth over the past months has been more than insane. It’s completely expected they don’t have the compute. You don’t have infinite data centers around
      - taytus 7mo ago
        Like or not, openai isn't having the same compute strain, meaning this was predictable.
        rogerrogerr 7mo ago
        Or, Anthropic has better models and is experiencing higher demand because of that. Or, OpenAI was reckless in securing compute.
        dgellow 7mo ago
        Or that they were more likely to take risks. It’s not clear to me that what anthropic did is a mistake, they didn’t have the same level of capital and OpenAI is taking extreme risks with their compute commitment. It’s really not obvious that won’t backfire
    - joshstrange 7mo ago
      The restrictions are dumb not because they're lower than any of us want them to be, but because they're unclear. Every time Claude comes up on Hacker News, someone asks this question. And every time people chime in to agree that they also are unclear or someone weighs in saying, no, it's totally clear, while proceeding not to point at any official resource and/or to "explain" the rules in a that is incompatible with official documentation. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737924
      - taytus 7mo ago
        You are arguing something different. My point is that they must apply these restrictions. Do I think they could have calculated their growth a little better? Yes, of course, but hindsight is 20/20.
        joshstrange 7mo ago
        We might be talking past each other, I promise I'm not just trying to argue. > My point is that they must apply these restrictions. I fully understand and respect they need restrictions on how you can use your subscription (or any of their offerings). My issue is not there there _are_ restrictions but that the restrictions themselves are unclear which leads to people being unsure where the line is (that they are trying not to cross). Put simply: At what point is `claude -p` usage not allowed on a subscription: - Running `claude -p` from the CLI? - Running `claude -p` on a Cron? - Running `claude -p` as a response to some external event? (GH action, webhook, etc?) - Running `claude -p` when I receive a Telegram/Discord/etc message (from myself)? Different people will draw the line in different places and Anthropic is not forthcoming about what is or is not allowed. Essentially, there is a spectrum between "Running claude by hand on the command line" and "OpenClaw" [0] and we don't know where they draw the line. Because of that, and because the banning process is draconian and final with no appeals, it leads to a lot of frustration. [0] I do not use OpenClaw nor am I arguing it should be allowed on the subscription. It would be nice if it was but I'm not saying it should be. I'm just saying that OpenClaw clearly is _not_ allowed but `claude -p` wouldn't be usable at all with a subscription if it was completely banned so what can it (safely) be used for?
    - mcmcmc 7mo ago
      It’s dumb to piss off their customers with confusing rule changes instead of just raising their prices to deal with high demand. They might even make a profit
- hmokiguess 7mo ago
  Wouldn't ACP be better for an IDE? https://agentclientprotocol.com/get-started/introduction https://agentclientprotocol.com/get-started/introduction
  - unshavedyak 7mo ago
    Possibly, though at first i was entirely focusing (and still am) on Claude Code usage. Given that CC had an API, i figured its own SDK would update faster/better/etc to new Claude features that Anthropic introduces. I'm sure ACP is a flexible protocol, but nonetheless i was just aiming for direct Claude integration.. and you know, it's an official SDK, seemed quite logical to me. It would be absurd to me if the same application is somehow allowed via ACP but not via official SDK. Though perhaps the official SDK offers data/features that they don't want you to use for certain scenarios? If that were they case though it would be nice if they actually published a per-SDK-API restrictions list. That we're having to guess at this feels painful. edit: Hah, hilariously you're still using the SDK even if you use ACP, since Claude doesn't have ACP support i believe? https://github.com/agentclientprotocol/claude-agent-acp https://github.com/agentclientprotocol/claude-agent-acp
    - adastra22 7mo ago
      ACP is the SDK. They renamed it.
      - BoorishBears 7mo ago
        Where did you see that? The only rename I'm aware of is Claude Code SDK becomimg Claude Agent SDK, but that was still seperate from ACP
        adastra22 7mo ago
        Thank you. Sorry, was a brain fart.
      - unshavedyak 7mo ago
        You're implying that Claude's SDK is a native ACP implementation?
- cortesoft 7mo ago
  I was pretty sure that claude -p would always be fine, but I looked at the TOS and it is a bit unclear. It says in the prohibited use section: > Except when you are accessing our Services via an Anthropic API Key or where we otherwise explicitly permit it, to access the Services through automated or non-human means, whether through a bot, script, or otherwise. So it seems like using a harness or your own tools to call claude -p is fine, AS LONG AS A HUMAN TRIGGERS IT. They don’t want you using the subscription to automate things calling claude -p… unless you do it through their automation tools I guess? But what if you use their automation tool to call your harness that calls claude -p? I don’t actually know. Does it matter if your tool loops to call claude -p? Or if your automation just makes repeated calls to a routine that uses your harness to make one claude -p call? It is not nearly as clear as I thought 10 minutes ago. Edit: Well, I was just checking my usage page and noticed the new 'Daily included routine runs' section, where it says you get 15 free routine runs with your subscription (at least with my max one), and then it switches to extra usage after that. So I guess that answers some of the questions... by using their routine functionality they are able to limit your automation potential (at least somewhat) in terms of maxing out your subscription usage.
  - ElFitz 7mo ago
    15? Per month? What’s even the point?
    - adastra22 7mo ago
      I presume it is per 5 hr window?
      - cortesoft 7mo ago
        It’s per rolling 24 hour period.
    - cortesoft 7mo ago
      It’s per rolling 24 hour period
joshstrange 7mo ago
Anthropic deserves to have this as the top comment on every HN post. It's absurd that they don't clarify this better and so many people are running around online saying the exact opposite from what their, confusing, docs say. The Chilling Effect of this is real and it gets more and more frustrating that they can't or won't clarify.
- throwup238 7mo ago
  It’s also absurd that they’re doing their communication on a bunch of separate platforms like HN, Reddit, and Github with no coherent strategy or consistency as far as I can tell. Can’t I just get policy clarifications in my email like a normal business? I downgraded my $200/mo sub to $20 this past week and I’m going to try out Codex’s Pro plans. Between the cache TTL (does it even affect me? No idea), changes in the rate limit, 429 rate limit HTTP status code during business hours, adaptive thinking (literally the worst decision they’ve ever made, as far as my line of work is concerned), dumb agent behavior silently creating batshit insane fallthroughs, clearly vibe coded harness/infrastructure, and their total lack of transparency, I think I’m done. It was fun while it lasted but I’m tired of paying for their mistakes in capacity planning and I feel like the big rug pull (from all three SOTA providers) is coming like a freight train.
  - sidrag22 7mo ago
    I was "Claude only" for well over a year. Kinda crazy how they seem to be gaining a LOT of public attention the last few months, yet i see this type of sentiment from other devs/myself. for me it started with their opencode drama, and openai's decision to embrace opencode in response. I didn't even know what opencode was prior to that drama, yet now here i am using opencode and a ton of crafted openai agents in my projects. Would love to have some claude agents in that mix, but i guess im stuck in Claude Code if i wanna even touch their models... I'd love to go back to just claude as i "trust" them more in a sorta less evil vibe manner, but if they are gonna prevent subscription usage to something people use to allow themselves more freedom, they gotta then close that gap with their own tools rather than pumping out stuff like this which scares me off given the past couple months. I totally understand why they are cutting off 3pa access to stuff like openclaw, where the avg user is just a power user in comparison to avg claude user or whatever. I haven't kept up a ton with their opencode issues, but I just know i can't get behind a company actively trying to make my potential usage of tokens less optimized to keep me locked into their ecosystem. Really just kinda hoping local models kill it all for devs after a few years, I'm not interested in perma relying on data centers for my workflow.
stephbook 7mo ago
The ambiguity is intentional. Like Microsoft not banning volume licenses. They want to scare you, so you don't max out your subscription – which they sell at a loss. Another comparison would be "unlimited storage", where "unlimited" means some people will abuse it and the company will soon limit the "unlimited."
- pixel_popping 7mo ago
  Literally yeah, the ambiguity is just so they can boycott anytime they want, people underestimate Anthropic too much, obviously they have insane amount of scrappers, bots... no comments online is made without their awareness and analyzed by a bunch of agents that then do prediction and for sure so much more. They know exactly what they are doing.
causal 7mo ago
Yeah in the span of a month or so we had: - SDK that allows you to use OAuth authentication! - Docs updated to say DO NOT USE OAUTH authentication unless authorized! [0] - Anthropic employee Tweeting "That's not what we meant! It's fine for personal use!" [1] - An email sent out to everyone saying it's NOT fine do NOT use it [2] Sigh. [0] https://code.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview#get-started https://code.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview#get-start... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1r8et0d/update_from_anthropic_regarding_the_agent_sdk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1r8et0d/update_fr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47633396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47633396
mrgill 7mo ago
Don't use claude -p in any kind of harness at all. I used it ONCE in a local custom made one, and got my account nuked. No help from them at all. Appealed, and the appeal was denied. I had been a Max subscriber since day 1 and Claude subscriber since day 1 in 2023. They don't care.
- causal 7mo ago
  It's like they oversold capacity and are looking for excuses to get rid of users lol Opus is fine but it's not THAT much better than the alternatives. I want to support Anthropic because they seem "less shady" than OpenAI but they sure seem determined to push people away.
imdsm 7mo ago
What if claude triggers claude? Is claude automated or non-human? So if claude decides to trigger claude -p then claude violates the ToS on your behalf and you get your account nuked?
- causal 7mo ago
  Claude sets an environment variable to prevent nested invocation, but I've found it can be unset. No idea if they consider that a violation of the secret laws though.

by andai 7mo ago

unshavedyak 7mo ago

Wait we can't use claude -p around other tools? What is the point of the JSON SDK then? Anthropic is confusing here, ugh. edit: And specifically i'm making an IDE, and trying to get ClaudeCode into it. I frankly have no clue when Claude usage is simply part of an IDE and "okay" and when it becomes a third party harness..

grafmax 7mo ago
They’re shooting themselves in the foot with these dumb restrictions.
- taytus 7mo ago
  They are not dumb restrictions. They just don't have the compute. That is the dumb part. Dario did not secure the compute they need so now they are obviously struggling.
  - dgellow 7mo ago
    Their growth over the past months has been more than insane. It’s completely expected they don’t have the compute. You don’t have infinite data centers around
    - taytus 7mo ago
      Like or not, openai isn't having the same compute strain, meaning this was predictable.
      - rogerrogerr 7mo ago
        Or, Anthropic has better models and is experiencing higher demand because of that. Or, OpenAI was reckless in securing compute.
      - dgellow 7mo ago
        Or that they were more likely to take risks. It’s not clear to me that what anthropic did is a mistake, they didn’t have the same level of capital and OpenAI is taking extreme risks with their compute commitment. It’s really not obvious that won’t backfire
  - joshstrange 7mo ago
    The restrictions are dumb not because they're lower than any of us want them to be, but because they're unclear. Every time Claude comes up on Hacker News, someone asks this question. And every time people chime in to agree that they also are unclear or someone weighs in saying, no, it's totally clear, while proceeding not to point at any official resource and/or to "explain" the rules in a that is incompatible with official documentation. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737924
    - taytus 7mo ago
      You are arguing something different. My point is that they must apply these restrictions. Do I think they could have calculated their growth a little better? Yes, of course, but hindsight is 20/20.
      - joshstrange 7mo ago
        We might be talking past each other, I promise I'm not just trying to argue. > My point is that they must apply these restrictions. I fully understand and respect they need restrictions on how you can use your subscription (or any of their offerings). My issue is not there there _are_ restrictions but that the restrictions themselves are unclear which leads to people being unsure where the line is (that they are trying not to cross). Put simply: At what point is `claude -p` usage not allowed on a subscription: - Running `claude -p` from the CLI? - Running `claude -p` on a Cron? - Running `claude -p` as a response to some external event? (GH action, webhook, etc?) - Running `claude -p` when I receive a Telegram/Discord/etc message (from myself)? Different people will draw the line in different places and Anthropic is not forthcoming about what is or is not allowed. Essentially, there is a spectrum between "Running claude by hand on the command line" and "OpenClaw" [0] and we don't know where they draw the line. Because of that, and because the banning process is draconian and final with no appeals, it leads to a lot of frustration. [0] I do not use OpenClaw nor am I arguing it should be allowed on the subscription. It would be nice if it was but I'm not saying it should be. I'm just saying that OpenClaw clearly is _not_ allowed but `claude -p` wouldn't be usable at all with a subscription if it was completely banned so what can it (safely) be used for?
  - mcmcmc 7mo ago
    It’s dumb to piss off their customers with confusing rule changes instead of just raising their prices to deal with high demand. They might even make a profit
hmokiguess 7mo ago
Wouldn't ACP be better for an IDE? https://agentclientprotocol.com/get-started/introduction https://agentclientprotocol.com/get-started/introduction
- unshavedyak 7mo ago
  Possibly, though at first i was entirely focusing (and still am) on Claude Code usage. Given that CC had an API, i figured its own SDK would update faster/better/etc to new Claude features that Anthropic introduces. I'm sure ACP is a flexible protocol, but nonetheless i was just aiming for direct Claude integration.. and you know, it's an official SDK, seemed quite logical to me. It would be absurd to me if the same application is somehow allowed via ACP but not via official SDK. Though perhaps the official SDK offers data/features that they don't want you to use for certain scenarios? If that were they case though it would be nice if they actually published a per-SDK-API restrictions list. That we're having to guess at this feels painful. edit: Hah, hilariously you're still using the SDK even if you use ACP, since Claude doesn't have ACP support i believe? https://github.com/agentclientprotocol/claude-agent-acp https://github.com/agentclientprotocol/claude-agent-acp
  - adastra22 7mo ago
    ACP is the SDK. They renamed it.
    - BoorishBears 7mo ago
      Where did you see that? The only rename I'm aware of is Claude Code SDK becomimg Claude Agent SDK, but that was still seperate from ACP
      - adastra22 7mo ago
        Thank you. Sorry, was a brain fart.
    - unshavedyak 7mo ago
      You're implying that Claude's SDK is a native ACP implementation?
cortesoft 7mo ago
I was pretty sure that claude -p would always be fine, but I looked at the TOS and it is a bit unclear. It says in the prohibited use section: > Except when you are accessing our Services via an Anthropic API Key or where we otherwise explicitly permit it, to access the Services through automated or non-human means, whether through a bot, script, or otherwise. So it seems like using a harness or your own tools to call claude -p is fine, AS LONG AS A HUMAN TRIGGERS IT. They don’t want you using the subscription to automate things calling claude -p… unless you do it through their automation tools I guess? But what if you use their automation tool to call your harness that calls claude -p? I don’t actually know. Does it matter if your tool loops to call claude -p? Or if your automation just makes repeated calls to a routine that uses your harness to make one claude -p call? It is not nearly as clear as I thought 10 minutes ago. Edit: Well, I was just checking my usage page and noticed the new 'Daily included routine runs' section, where it says you get 15 free routine runs with your subscription (at least with my max one), and then it switches to extra usage after that. So I guess that answers some of the questions... by using their routine functionality they are able to limit your automation potential (at least somewhat) in terms of maxing out your subscription usage.
- ElFitz 7mo ago
  15? Per month? What’s even the point?
  - adastra22 7mo ago
    I presume it is per 5 hr window?
    - cortesoft 7mo ago
      It’s per rolling 24 hour period.
  - cortesoft 7mo ago
    It’s per rolling 24 hour period

joshstrange 7mo ago

Anthropic deserves to have this as the top comment on every HN post. It's absurd that they don't clarify this better and so many people are running around online saying the exact opposite from what their, confusing, docs say. The Chilling Effect of this is real and it gets more and more frustrating that they can't or won't clarify.

throwup238 7mo ago
It’s also absurd that they’re doing their communication on a bunch of separate platforms like HN, Reddit, and Github with no coherent strategy or consistency as far as I can tell. Can’t I just get policy clarifications in my email like a normal business? I downgraded my $200/mo sub to $20 this past week and I’m going to try out Codex’s Pro plans. Between the cache TTL (does it even affect me? No idea), changes in the rate limit, 429 rate limit HTTP status code during business hours, adaptive thinking (literally the worst decision they’ve ever made, as far as my line of work is concerned), dumb agent behavior silently creating batshit insane fallthroughs, clearly vibe coded harness/infrastructure, and their total lack of transparency, I think I’m done. It was fun while it lasted but I’m tired of paying for their mistakes in capacity planning and I feel like the big rug pull (from all three SOTA providers) is coming like a freight train.
- sidrag22 7mo ago
  I was "Claude only" for well over a year. Kinda crazy how they seem to be gaining a LOT of public attention the last few months, yet i see this type of sentiment from other devs/myself. for me it started with their opencode drama, and openai's decision to embrace opencode in response. I didn't even know what opencode was prior to that drama, yet now here i am using opencode and a ton of crafted openai agents in my projects. Would love to have some claude agents in that mix, but i guess im stuck in Claude Code if i wanna even touch their models... I'd love to go back to just claude as i "trust" them more in a sorta less evil vibe manner, but if they are gonna prevent subscription usage to something people use to allow themselves more freedom, they gotta then close that gap with their own tools rather than pumping out stuff like this which scares me off given the past couple months. I totally understand why they are cutting off 3pa access to stuff like openclaw, where the avg user is just a power user in comparison to avg claude user or whatever. I haven't kept up a ton with their opencode issues, but I just know i can't get behind a company actively trying to make my potential usage of tokens less optimized to keep me locked into their ecosystem. Really just kinda hoping local models kill it all for devs after a few years, I'm not interested in perma relying on data centers for my workflow.

stephbook 7mo ago

The ambiguity is intentional. Like Microsoft not banning volume licenses. They want to scare you, so you don't max out your subscription – which they sell at a loss. Another comparison would be "unlimited storage", where "unlimited" means some people will abuse it and the company will soon limit the "unlimited."

pixel_popping 7mo ago
Literally yeah, the ambiguity is just so they can boycott anytime they want, people underestimate Anthropic too much, obviously they have insane amount of scrappers, bots... no comments online is made without their awareness and analyzed by a bunch of agents that then do prediction and for sure so much more. They know exactly what they are doing.

causal 7mo ago

Yeah in the span of a month or so we had: - SDK that allows you to use OAuth authentication! - Docs updated to say DO NOT USE OAUTH authentication unless authorized! [0] - Anthropic employee Tweeting "That's not what we meant! It's fine for personal use!" [1] - An email sent out to everyone saying it's NOT fine do NOT use it [2] Sigh. [0] https://code.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview#get-started https://code.claude.com/docs/en/agent-sdk/overview#get-start... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1r8et0d/update_from_anthropic_regarding_the_agent_sdk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1r8et0d/update_fr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47633396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47633396

mrgill 7mo ago

Don't use claude -p in any kind of harness at all. I used it ONCE in a local custom made one, and got my account nuked. No help from them at all. Appealed, and the appeal was denied. I had been a Max subscriber since day 1 and Claude subscriber since day 1 in 2023. They don't care.

causal 7mo ago
It's like they oversold capacity and are looking for excuses to get rid of users lol Opus is fine but it's not THAT much better than the alternatives. I want to support Anthropic because they seem "less shady" than OpenAI but they sure seem determined to push people away.

imdsm 7mo ago

What if claude triggers claude? Is claude automated or non-human? So if claude decides to trigger claude -p then claude violates the ToS on your behalf and you get your account nuked?

causal 7mo ago
Claude sets an environment variable to prevent nested invocation, but I've found it can be unset. No idea if they consider that a violation of the secret laws though.