4 ms·

I have no sympathy for people who speed past a stopped school bus. With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me. I'm of the op

I have no sympathy for people who speed past a stopped school bus. With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me. I'm of the opinion that most of our laws are calibrated based on enforcement costs that are simply being removed and it's going to fundamentally transform society if we continue to automate in this way.

andrepd 6mo ago
> The footage is sent to local police for review. If they decide the law was broken, the driver receives a $250 ticket in the mail. Where is the automation? This is no more automated than a speed camera or a parking camera. It's not even worthy of being called AI truth be told. Traffic laws are underpoliced by orders of magnitude. Setting aside the general catastrophe which is car-centric (more like car-exclusive) design of our urban and suburban spaces. Technology gives us extremely cheap and easy ways to monitor traffic laws, much cheaper and much more reliable than having a cop roam around. The very least we can do is use it to make cars suck a bit less.
- ufocia 6mo ago
  Traffic laws are usually arbitrary, victimless (or at least the perpetrator is the victim), and over-policed because they are revenue drivers and police job security. No crimes, no need for the police.
- bix6 6mo ago
  The speed camera that was found to shorten yellow lights to force more tickets? The flock camera that is used to stalk an ex? These are the cameras you love?
- dublinben 6mo ago
  Unfortunately it sounds like this program is designed to maximize revenue for the private vendor, not make roads safer by changing driver behavior. The county is also using this surface-level fix as an excuse to avoid more fundamental road design changes that would actually improve safety for vulnerable road users. Other automated enforcement mechanisms like average speed cameras and automated tolling are more effective at achieving their purported goals. Ultimately, enforcement will always be secondary to proper road design in both cost and effectiveness.
ljf 6mo ago
What I like about the automation of rules is that it takes away targeted enforcement and the opportunity for leniency to be offered only to certain groups. The UK model for speed cameras is that they can (generally) only be placed in areas that have shown to have a higher than average number of accidents on the stretch of road, caused by speeding. So at least (in theory) they are focused on reducing accidents and not raising money.
- ufocia 6mo ago
  We have a bunch of red light cameras which actually cause more accidents than they prevent. Perhaps t-bones are more dangerous than read-ends, but accident prevention it isn't. Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  - senordevnyc 6mo ago
    Do you have any data on that? It seems pretty messed up to suggest that we shouldn’t enforce people not blowing through red lights because then they’ll slam on their brakes and cause rear end accidents instead.
    - dole 6mo ago
      https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05049/ https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05049/
      - alamortsubite 6mo ago
        This seems to say the opposite, which is that the benefits of reducing right-angle crashes (getting t-boned) outweighs the increase in rear-end crashes.
    - toss1 6mo ago
      Not GP, but I've seen multiple credible news stories on this. The problem isn't the red-light camera itself, it is that whoever installs/manages them also reduces the time of the yellow-light warning, so the red light comes on significantly sooner. The normal yellow light timing is a properly studied and engineered interval based on traffic and speed to give drivers sufficient warning to see, decide, and go or slow-stop in a safe and predictable fashion. When the red-light-camera installers/managers decide to cut that time to increase infractions and increase revenue, they create situations where drivers think they are going to make it to the intersection in good time, but are surprised by the sooner-changing red light, so emergency-brake before the line. This causes accidents, including accidents where the car is pushed into the intersection and causes a rear-end then T-bone. This invalid yellow-red light timing was revealed in some lawsuits about it. I think the right solution is to maintain properly engineered timing, install cameras that also trigger a full video from multiple angles, and manually evaluate each positive and ticket only the egregious ones and have records of the violators who caused accidents. But since the easy money is evidently too much of a temptation to fck with people, ban them all.
giantg2 6mo ago
I normally agree. However, this doesn't really automate the function like speed cameras or regular red-light cameras do. This still has police in the loop. The real problem is that it tickets owner and not driver.
ufocia 6mo ago
Yeah, I also heard that from people until they got a ticket for that. Then they suddenly lawyer up rather than admit their guilt. It's not just automated enforcement. It's the surveillance state we're sliding into.
whartung 6mo ago
As I understand it, Tesla auto driving (and, maybe, Waymo), have consistency issues with passing stopped school buses. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't. But, what little I read about it, nothing from the photos or video show that the busses were actually signaling. A bus can stop, and you can pass it. When they embark children, they have to put their flashers on (or, back in the day on my busses, they had signals and a STOP sign that popped out from the driver side). When the flashers are running, that's when you are supposed to stop (both ways). Otherwise, it's just a bus on the side of the road.
- ufocia 6mo ago
  "Both ways" depends on jurisdiction and the number of lanes. Most people here are ignorant of the actual rules.
uberman 6mo ago
While I acknowledge there is now a legality question around the use of "red light cameras". I have no sympathy for people who are not stopping for school busses: I can't stomach that the article frames this as "burden" on those driving past the bus. "there’s evidence the program is heavily burdening residents who either can’t or don’t pay the fines."
cpwright 6mo ago
My daughter got one of these. The school bus was pulled over on the side of the road; not in a travel lane. The bus driver opened the door as she was passing the back of the bus and closed it before she got to the front of the bus. She got a $250 fine. I pled not guilty (because it is my car). This was last summer, and we still do not have a court date. Plenty of these tickets are BS that most actual cops would not write. The only saving grace is there is video instead of just someone's description of what happened.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- uberman 6mo ago
  At 15 mph it would take less than 2 seconds for a car at the back of a bus to reach the front of a bus. Are you suggesting that the driver of the bus was able to open and then close their door in less than two seconds? Alternatively, Are you suggesting that your daughter was driving slower than 15 mph yet was unable to stop? I certainly believe there is room for discretion when officers write tickets, but not for passing a school bus.
xnx 6mo ago
> With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me It cuts both ways. I see lax and inconsistent enforcement (e.g. "profiling") as a greater concern.

andrepd 6mo ago

> The footage is sent to local police for review. If they decide the law was broken, the driver receives a $250 ticket in the mail. Where is the automation? This is no more automated than a speed camera or a parking camera. It's not even worthy of being called AI truth be told. Traffic laws are underpoliced by orders of magnitude. Setting aside the general catastrophe which is car-centric (more like car-exclusive) design of our urban and suburban spaces. Technology gives us extremely cheap and easy ways to monitor traffic laws, much cheaper and much more reliable than having a cop roam around. The very least we can do is use it to make cars suck a bit less.

ufocia 6mo ago
Traffic laws are usually arbitrary, victimless (or at least the perpetrator is the victim), and over-policed because they are revenue drivers and police job security. No crimes, no need for the police.
bix6 6mo ago
The speed camera that was found to shorten yellow lights to force more tickets? The flock camera that is used to stalk an ex? These are the cameras you love?
dublinben 6mo ago
Unfortunately it sounds like this program is designed to maximize revenue for the private vendor, not make roads safer by changing driver behavior. The county is also using this surface-level fix as an excuse to avoid more fundamental road design changes that would actually improve safety for vulnerable road users. Other automated enforcement mechanisms like average speed cameras and automated tolling are more effective at achieving their purported goals. Ultimately, enforcement will always be secondary to proper road design in both cost and effectiveness.

ljf 6mo ago

What I like about the automation of rules is that it takes away targeted enforcement and the opportunity for leniency to be offered only to certain groups. The UK model for speed cameras is that they can (generally) only be placed in areas that have shown to have a higher than average number of accidents on the stretch of road, caused by speeding. So at least (in theory) they are focused on reducing accidents and not raising money.

ufocia 6mo ago
We have a bunch of red light cameras which actually cause more accidents than they prevent. Perhaps t-bones are more dangerous than read-ends, but accident prevention it isn't. Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- senordevnyc 6mo ago
  Do you have any data on that? It seems pretty messed up to suggest that we shouldn’t enforce people not blowing through red lights because then they’ll slam on their brakes and cause rear end accidents instead.
  - dole 6mo ago
    https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05049/ https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05049/
    - alamortsubite 6mo ago
      This seems to say the opposite, which is that the benefits of reducing right-angle crashes (getting t-boned) outweighs the increase in rear-end crashes.
  - toss1 6mo ago
    Not GP, but I've seen multiple credible news stories on this. The problem isn't the red-light camera itself, it is that whoever installs/manages them also reduces the time of the yellow-light warning, so the red light comes on significantly sooner. The normal yellow light timing is a properly studied and engineered interval based on traffic and speed to give drivers sufficient warning to see, decide, and go or slow-stop in a safe and predictable fashion. When the red-light-camera installers/managers decide to cut that time to increase infractions and increase revenue, they create situations where drivers think they are going to make it to the intersection in good time, but are surprised by the sooner-changing red light, so emergency-brake before the line. This causes accidents, including accidents where the car is pushed into the intersection and causes a rear-end then T-bone. This invalid yellow-red light timing was revealed in some lawsuits about it. I think the right solution is to maintain properly engineered timing, install cameras that also trigger a full video from multiple angles, and manually evaluate each positive and ticket only the egregious ones and have records of the violators who caused accidents. But since the easy money is evidently too much of a temptation to fck with people, ban them all.

giantg2 6mo ago

I normally agree. However, this doesn't really automate the function like speed cameras or regular red-light cameras do. This still has police in the loop. The real problem is that it tickets owner and not driver.

ufocia 6mo ago

Yeah, I also heard that from people until they got a ticket for that. Then they suddenly lawyer up rather than admit their guilt. It's not just automated enforcement. It's the surveillance state we're sliding into.

whartung 6mo ago

As I understand it, Tesla auto driving (and, maybe, Waymo), have consistency issues with passing stopped school buses. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't. But, what little I read about it, nothing from the photos or video show that the busses were actually signaling. A bus can stop, and you can pass it. When they embark children, they have to put their flashers on (or, back in the day on my busses, they had signals and a STOP sign that popped out from the driver side). When the flashers are running, that's when you are supposed to stop (both ways). Otherwise, it's just a bus on the side of the road.

ufocia 6mo ago
"Both ways" depends on jurisdiction and the number of lanes. Most people here are ignorant of the actual rules.

uberman 6mo ago

While I acknowledge there is now a legality question around the use of "red light cameras". I have no sympathy for people who are not stopping for school busses: I can't stomach that the article frames this as "burden" on those driving past the bus. "there’s evidence the program is heavily burdening residents who either can’t or don’t pay the fines."

cpwright 6mo ago

My daughter got one of these. The school bus was pulled over on the side of the road; not in a travel lane. The bus driver opened the door as she was passing the back of the bus and closed it before she got to the front of the bus. She got a $250 fine. I pled not guilty (because it is my car). This was last summer, and we still do not have a court date. Plenty of these tickets are BS that most actual cops would not write. The only saving grace is there is video instead of just someone's description of what happened.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
uberman 6mo ago
At 15 mph it would take less than 2 seconds for a car at the back of a bus to reach the front of a bus. Are you suggesting that the driver of the bus was able to open and then close their door in less than two seconds? Alternatively, Are you suggesting that your daughter was driving slower than 15 mph yet was unable to stop? I certainly believe there is room for discretion when officers write tickets, but not for passing a school bus.

xnx 6mo ago

> With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me It cuts both ways. I see lax and inconsistent enforcement (e.g. "profiling") as a greater concern.