4 ms·

"The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias

by Tor3 6mo ago

"The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. I'm in Japan. I use trains because it's so very easy and it's so very reliable. It's simply the best option for travelling. If I wish to go to Tokyo? I check a website quickly, I look up the best connection for my schedule (easy to find), I may pay in advance, or not. I take my bicycle and go ten minutes to the nearest station, park the bicycle in the bicycle parking there, and off I go. As it's a small station I change to a limited express train (where I've booked a seat) after ten minutes, then, after another forty minutes I reach a big station and I switch to the Shinkansen and I'm off to Tokyo. I'm relaxed all the time. I buy a coffee on the train, and/or I buy coffee and lunch at the station and bring on the train. Every other way of getting there is way more complex, and would take way more time.

phrotoma 6mo ago
> “An advanced city is not one where even the poor use cars, but rather one where even the rich use public transport.”
- JKCalhoun 6mo ago
  On the JR line in Tokyo, standing with a friend who motions to me with his glance to a salaryman standing next to us. "Hand-stitched suit", my friend whispers. Which is when I notices this guy's "threads" (literally). Perhaps not Warren Buffett, but no doubt an executive of some stature riding with the rest of us plebes.
Gravityloss 6mo ago
Maybe some trains could be more redneck coded somehow? Steam trains with sweaty stokers and buffalo shooting from the windows of course had plenty of that, but how to bring something from that aesthetic to the present? Bar carriage with sports screens still sounds still a bit passive and cliche. Maybe a gym car? There are already kid and pet cars after all at least here. In German trains you get a real glass pint for your beer, I think that's a big plus.
- servo_sausage 6mo ago
  I suspect that culturally for Americans to embrace trains, you probably need segregation; a free class and a ticketed class with a bouncer.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 6mo ago
    Riding the the train daily is the norm in the eastern United States. The urban density and shorter distances between metros allows it to be affordable. The US is massive... riding the train between most cities is dramatically more expensive than flying and takes most of a day if not multiple days between cities. I used to commute weekly between two cities in Texas and it was a 2 hour flight. (Houston - Lubbock)
  - 4ggr0 6mo ago
    i mean the Shinkansen has two classes as well :)
    - sho 6mo ago
      three, now!
      - decafninja 6mo ago
        As do some European high speed trains. I make it a point to book first class (or equivalent) tickets as that often comes with lounge access at the stations - which lets you mostly avoid the rampant pickpocketing and other petty crime that absolutely infests many European train stations.
angled 6mo ago
Ah! But is your bicycle registered and do you have insurance. (I agree with the trains. I love the trains.)
- skrebbel 6mo ago
  People insure bikes?
  - andreareina 6mo ago
    They are easy to steal and can cost multiple thousands of dollars.
    - wolfram74 6mo ago
      Though even if you're getting an hybrid assist bike, if you're paying much more than 1500$ for a commuter, probably overpaying [1200 from the manufacturer] https://www.aventon.com/products/soltera-2-5-ebike?variant=44077028606147 https://www.aventon.com/products/soltera-2-5-ebike?variant=4...
  - Tor3 6mo ago
    At my native home my bicycles are insured, now through my home insurance (part of the furniture, kind of), but at one point one of my electric bicycles was too expensive for that and required additional insurance. As soon as the price dropped a bit I could drop that extra insurance. As the comment above said, in Japan a bicycle is registered to a person when you buy it. Even the second hand bikes from recycle shops. And there _is_ a theft problem.. but not everywhere. I sometimes don't bother with locking my bicycle outside the shopping mall, here (in my town in Japan). Nobody steals bicycles here. There was a time when a particular gang of teenagers would steal scooters though.. the 50cc ones. A friend's scooter was stolen. The police found the culprits and he got his scooter back. But not much problems with bicycles. Unlike in my town back home. Now that I'm here I would not be surprised if, when I go back, I find that someone broke into my garage and stole the bicycles.
  - kalleboo 6mo ago
throw0101d 6mo ago
>> "The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" > That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there is in (say) the US. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Populati... IMHO cultural bias (and practicality, geographic and economic (low car ownership post-WW2)) is there in Japan, which led to a particular development model, which lends itself to non-car-centric infrastructure. Contrast: Okinawa, where the US (cultural?) influence is higher and that has highways everywhere and where public transit is apparently not that good.
- JKCalhoun 6mo ago
  I have read you also need to prove you have a place to park a car in order to own one. (And as you point out, space is limited.)
  - pezezin 6mo ago
    In the villages (村) you don't need to, but anything bigger than that yes, you need a parking lot. The procedure for the permit in my city is maddening, you need to draw a map of your general area and your parking lot BY HAND, and then several days later a police guy will go there to confirm it visually. They have not invented GIS yet...
- pezezin 6mo ago
  > Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there is in (say) the US. LOL no. Outside of the big neighborhoods of the big cities, Japan is endless urban sprawl. I know because I live in a small Japanese city of 40k people and it's just detached houses, small 2-story apartment buildings, a big box stores. Public transportation is almost non-existant and I need to drive my car everyday for everything.
dfxm12 6mo ago
Convenience & simplicity aside, how expensive is it? Not necessarily compared to driving, but just in general. When I went to Japan a long time ago, I remember being kinda shocked at the cost compared to the JR Pass for tourists (which included the Shinkansen), but part of that was to give tourists a huge incentive to spend some money outside of Tokyo, I'm sure, but I remember some fares feeling expensive for people just to head into the city for a night out...
- Tor3 6mo ago
  I don't think it's expensive, but then again I'm comparing it to train prices in Northern Europe, which is just painful. There, I'm used to pay for the ticket through gritted teeth. In Japan I can pay for a ticket + limited express (better train w/booked better seat) for a 45 minute ride for what I would pay for a pint of beer at home. Totally worth it. The Shinkansen for a 90 minute ride is not cheap, say ten beers.. Northern Europe beer prices, mind.

by Tor3 6mo ago

phrotoma 6mo ago

> “An advanced city is not one where even the poor use cars, but rather one where even the rich use public transport.”

JKCalhoun 6mo ago
On the JR line in Tokyo, standing with a friend who motions to me with his glance to a salaryman standing next to us. "Hand-stitched suit", my friend whispers. Which is when I notices this guy's "threads" (literally). Perhaps not Warren Buffett, but no doubt an executive of some stature riding with the rest of us plebes.

Gravityloss 6mo ago

Maybe some trains could be more redneck coded somehow? Steam trains with sweaty stokers and buffalo shooting from the windows of course had plenty of that, but how to bring something from that aesthetic to the present? Bar carriage with sports screens still sounds still a bit passive and cliche. Maybe a gym car? There are already kid and pet cars after all at least here. In German trains you get a real glass pint for your beer, I think that's a big plus.

servo_sausage 6mo ago
I suspect that culturally for Americans to embrace trains, you probably need segregation; a free class and a ticketed class with a bouncer.
- FuriouslyAdrift 6mo ago
  Riding the the train daily is the norm in the eastern United States. The urban density and shorter distances between metros allows it to be affordable. The US is massive... riding the train between most cities is dramatically more expensive than flying and takes most of a day if not multiple days between cities. I used to commute weekly between two cities in Texas and it was a 2 hour flight. (Houston - Lubbock)
- 4ggr0 6mo ago
  i mean the Shinkansen has two classes as well :)
  - sho 6mo ago
    three, now!
    - decafninja 6mo ago
      As do some European high speed trains. I make it a point to book first class (or equivalent) tickets as that often comes with lounge access at the stations - which lets you mostly avoid the rampant pickpocketing and other petty crime that absolutely infests many European train stations.

angled 6mo ago

Ah! But is your bicycle registered and do you have insurance. (I agree with the trains. I love the trains.)

skrebbel 6mo ago
People insure bikes?
- andreareina 6mo ago
  They are easy to steal and can cost multiple thousands of dollars.
  - wolfram74 6mo ago
    Though even if you're getting an hybrid assist bike, if you're paying much more than 1500$ for a commuter, probably overpaying [1200 from the manufacturer] https://www.aventon.com/products/soltera-2-5-ebike?variant=44077028606147 https://www.aventon.com/products/soltera-2-5-ebike?variant=4...
- Tor3 6mo ago
  At my native home my bicycles are insured, now through my home insurance (part of the furniture, kind of), but at one point one of my electric bicycles was too expensive for that and required additional insurance. As soon as the price dropped a bit I could drop that extra insurance. As the comment above said, in Japan a bicycle is registered to a person when you buy it. Even the second hand bikes from recycle shops. And there _is_ a theft problem.. but not everywhere. I sometimes don't bother with locking my bicycle outside the shopping mall, here (in my town in Japan). Nobody steals bicycles here. There was a time when a particular gang of teenagers would steal scooters though.. the 50cc ones. A friend's scooter was stolen. The police found the culprits and he got his scooter back. But not much problems with bicycles. Unlike in my town back home. Now that I'm here I would not be surprised if, when I go back, I find that someone broke into my garage and stole the bicycles.
- kalleboo 6mo ago

throw0101d 6mo ago

>> "The Japanese love cars, but they take trains because they have the best railway system in the world" > That's exactly it. It's not because of some cultural bias or whatever. Are there not a lot of toll roads in Japan as well? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_Japan#Tolls Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there is in (say) the US. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Populati... IMHO cultural bias (and practicality, geographic and economic (low car ownership post-WW2)) is there in Japan, which led to a particular development model, which lends itself to non-car-centric infrastructure. Contrast: Okinawa, where the US (cultural?) influence is higher and that has highways everywhere and where public transit is apparently not that good.

JKCalhoun 6mo ago
I have read you also need to prove you have a place to park a car in order to own one. (And as you point out, space is limited.)
- pezezin 6mo ago
  In the villages (村) you don't need to, but anything bigger than that yes, you need a parking lot. The procedure for the permit in my city is maddening, you need to draw a map of your general area and your parking lot BY HAND, and then several days later a police guy will go there to confirm it visually. They have not invented GIS yet...
pezezin 6mo ago
> Also, is not the population density fairly high? There's not as much land to spread in low-density car centric suburbs like there is in (say) the US. LOL no. Outside of the big neighborhoods of the big cities, Japan is endless urban sprawl. I know because I live in a small Japanese city of 40k people and it's just detached houses, small 2-story apartment buildings, a big box stores. Public transportation is almost non-existant and I need to drive my car everyday for everything.

dfxm12 6mo ago

Convenience & simplicity aside, how expensive is it? Not necessarily compared to driving, but just in general. When I went to Japan a long time ago, I remember being kinda shocked at the cost compared to the JR Pass for tourists (which included the Shinkansen), but part of that was to give tourists a huge incentive to spend some money outside of Tokyo, I'm sure, but I remember some fares feeling expensive for people just to head into the city for a night out...

Tor3 6mo ago
I don't think it's expensive, but then again I'm comparing it to train prices in Northern Europe, which is just painful. There, I'm used to pay for the ticket through gritted teeth. In Japan I can pay for a ticket + limited express (better train w/booked better seat) for a 45 minute ride for what I would pay for a pint of beer at home. Totally worth it. The Shinkansen for a 90 minute ride is not cheap, say ten beers.. Northern Europe beer prices, mind.