5 ms·

Folks that do this work for "free" do it because they enjoy it. And a small observation: if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of be

by Jyaif 6mo ago

Folks that do this work for "free" do it because they enjoy it. And a small observation: if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure.

kubb 6mo ago
Sure but then they have to waste time working for money, rather than doing God’s work.
- MiguelX413 6mo ago
  Wonderful way to put it.
cjbgkagh 6mo ago
I would suggest that’s an availability bias, those who do it for free are more likely to blog about it. There is a common distinction between professional and amateur with the former getting paid for their work. In general there is an understanding that someone getting paid can focus and do it full time and are expected to be better than someone who does it as a hobby. Perhaps coding is an unusual space where the best coders are often misfits who have a hard time holding down a job.
- luqtas 6mo ago
  i think you need to understand more about modern software infrastructure [0] [0] https://www.fordfoundation.org/learning/library/research-reports/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure/ https://www.fordfoundation.org/learning/library/research-rep...
  - cjbgkagh 6mo ago
    I'm focusing on the following premise; > if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure Not only do I think professional have a chance to be as good as amateurs, but the elite professionals are on average better than the elite amateurs. I do think that we would be better off if more elite amateurs became elite professionals.
    - luqtas 6mo ago
      should i repeat my comment and link the free document i doubt you read, again? modern software infrastructure runs on "folks that do it for the pleasure"
      - cjbgkagh 6mo ago
        I did read it and I agree with the sentiment, but disagree that professionals have no chance to reach the level of amateurs.
  - rcxdude 6mo ago
    Modern software infrastructure also relies on a lot of professionals.
- jcalvinowens 6mo ago
  > In general there is an understanding that someone getting paid can focus and do it full time and are expected to be better than someone who does it as a hobby. For something like flying airplanes, I think this is obviously true: nobody can afford to spend the required hours doing it unless somebody else is paying for the airplane, and the only way that happens is if that person is your employer. A lot of things are like that. But programming is very different, it requires almost no resources to practice except your time. You can sit at home in your pajamas with $1K worth of hardware and keep yourself busy for a lifetime through open source. Of course, you can also spend a lifetime building useless sandcastles while telling yourself you're a genius: you have to find ways to hold yourself accountable to grow. I've been fortunate to get paid to work on some interesting things... but the work I do for fun is, on average, ~100x more challenging and interesting than the work I'm paid to do. I would be a much much less capable programmer if I'd only done work I was paid to do for the past decade. I wouldn't go so far as to say "amateurs are better than professionals", but I think the skill level of the two groups is much more blurred in programming than in most other things.
  - NetMageSCW 6mo ago
    Your example is obviously false; there are 500K GA pilots in the US alone varying from my friend who had a Cessna 172 and flew it regularly (until joining CAP) to John Travolta flying his own 737.
    - cjbgkagh 6mo ago
      And how would John Travolta at roughly 5K lifetime hours compare to the best of the comercial pilots at 1K hours per year? Also John Travolta has a commercial licence and has been paid to fly. This argument seems absurd to me. I get that in software quite often time is wasted by poor management that otherwise would not be wasted if working unpaid. Well managed research orgs can work at elite levels but they are few and far between.
      - brucehoult 6mo ago
        Not all flight hours are equal. Airline pilots rack up a lot of hours but get very little "stick time", and what they do get is extremely sedate flying to not scare the passengers / spill their drinks. Their primary skills are pushing buttons on the autopilot and talking in the radio and transcribing clearances. A military pilot gets more effective stick time. But aerobatic pilots, ag pilots (but I repeat myself), and glider pilots gain a LOT more experience and skill per hour flown than an airline pilot. I mean, just look at this glider flying lesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI
mathisfun123 6mo ago
> if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure. ......... o.O i guess the professional football leagues all have players who are worse than the rec leaguers? hners are delusional...
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
tester756 6mo ago
>And a small observation: if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure. Usually complex things are there, where they money is - semiconductor industry, big corpos (chromium, linux, llvm, etc), AI, etc.

by Jyaif 6mo ago

kubb 6mo ago

Sure but then they have to waste time working for money, rather than doing God’s work.

MiguelX413 6mo ago
Wonderful way to put it.

cjbgkagh 6mo ago

I would suggest that’s an availability bias, those who do it for free are more likely to blog about it. There is a common distinction between professional and amateur with the former getting paid for their work. In general there is an understanding that someone getting paid can focus and do it full time and are expected to be better than someone who does it as a hobby. Perhaps coding is an unusual space where the best coders are often misfits who have a hard time holding down a job.

luqtas 6mo ago
i think you need to understand more about modern software infrastructure [0] [0] https://www.fordfoundation.org/learning/library/research-reports/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure/ https://www.fordfoundation.org/learning/library/research-rep...
- cjbgkagh 6mo ago
  I'm focusing on the following premise; > if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure Not only do I think professional have a chance to be as good as amateurs, but the elite professionals are on average better than the elite amateurs. I do think that we would be better off if more elite amateurs became elite professionals.
  - luqtas 6mo ago
    should i repeat my comment and link the free document i doubt you read, again? modern software infrastructure runs on "folks that do it for the pleasure"
    - cjbgkagh 6mo ago
      I did read it and I agree with the sentiment, but disagree that professionals have no chance to reach the level of amateurs.
- rcxdude 6mo ago
  Modern software infrastructure also relies on a lot of professionals.
jcalvinowens 6mo ago
> In general there is an understanding that someone getting paid can focus and do it full time and are expected to be better than someone who does it as a hobby. For something like flying airplanes, I think this is obviously true: nobody can afford to spend the required hours doing it unless somebody else is paying for the airplane, and the only way that happens is if that person is your employer. A lot of things are like that. But programming is very different, it requires almost no resources to practice except your time. You can sit at home in your pajamas with $1K worth of hardware and keep yourself busy for a lifetime through open source. Of course, you can also spend a lifetime building useless sandcastles while telling yourself you're a genius: you have to find ways to hold yourself accountable to grow. I've been fortunate to get paid to work on some interesting things... but the work I do for fun is, on average, ~100x more challenging and interesting than the work I'm paid to do. I would be a much much less capable programmer if I'd only done work I was paid to do for the past decade. I wouldn't go so far as to say "amateurs are better than professionals", but I think the skill level of the two groups is much more blurred in programming than in most other things.
- NetMageSCW 6mo ago
  Your example is obviously false; there are 500K GA pilots in the US alone varying from my friend who had a Cessna 172 and flew it regularly (until joining CAP) to John Travolta flying his own 737.
  - cjbgkagh 6mo ago
    And how would John Travolta at roughly 5K lifetime hours compare to the best of the comercial pilots at 1K hours per year? Also John Travolta has a commercial licence and has been paid to fly. This argument seems absurd to me. I get that in software quite often time is wasted by poor management that otherwise would not be wasted if working unpaid. Well managed research orgs can work at elite levels but they are few and far between.
    - brucehoult 6mo ago
      Not all flight hours are equal. Airline pilots rack up a lot of hours but get very little "stick time", and what they do get is extremely sedate flying to not scare the passengers / spill their drinks. Their primary skills are pushing buttons on the autopilot and talking in the radio and transcribing clearances. A military pilot gets more effective stick time. But aerobatic pilots, ag pilots (but I repeat myself), and glider pilots gain a LOT more experience and skill per hour flown than an airline pilot. I mean, just look at this glider flying lesson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI

mathisfun123 6mo ago

> if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure. ......... o.O i guess the professional football leagues all have players who are worse than the rec leaguers? hners are delusional...

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

tester756 6mo ago

>And a small observation: if you require money to do something, you usually have no chance of being as good as the folks that do it for the pleasure. Usually complex things are there, where they money is - semiconductor industry, big corpos (chromium, linux, llvm, etc), AI, etc.