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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity "Methanol poisoning can be treated with fomepizole or ethanol.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity "Methanol poisoning can be treated with fomepizole or ethanol.[19][22][23] Both drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition. Ethanol, the active ingredient in alcoholic beverages, acts as a competitive inhibitor by more effectively binding and saturating the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme in the liver, thus blocking the binding of methanol. Methanol is excreted by the kidneys without being converted into the toxic metabolites formaldehyde and formic acid. " So completely correct. >Alcohol fermented from fruit byproduct is extremely common in many cultures. It is asinine to think that only grain will be used once this is legalised. Not what I was saying at all. You could use grain, or sugar (cheapest and easiest). That said, the levels are not significantly high enough to poison you unless someone is trying to poison you. It's not happening when making alcohol to drink. From the link you posted >Administering patients with controlled doses of either ethanol or fomepizole is standard practice. Again, what I said is completely correct, your own source confirmed it. Secondly, also from the article >Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to cause serious health effects. Again, as I said, someone intentionally trying to poison you. And here's an actual study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844024083488 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240584402... >Both commercial and home-distilled alcohols exhibited methanol concentrations remarkably below the 0.35 % limit for brandy set by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. You're simply misinformed.

Anamon 6mo ago
From how I'm reading this, you're disagreeing with the parent but your quotes actually support what they wrote? Ethanol is not an antidote or "cure", it's more or less an attempt at dilution. There are other posts in this thread explaining why it's dangerous to believe that methanol poisoning can simply be counteracted with ethanol. >Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to cause serious health effects. I don't think the "to" here is meant to imply intent. It's "enough to", referring to the amount. I don't know where the notion comes from that people try to intentionally poison people with moonshine. Maybe in a Columbo episode. It happens when people cut corners or don't pay attention or get scammed.
- angry_octet 6mo ago
  The US Govt did it during prohibition. It has been retconned by wacky homebrew fringe into a belief that all poisonings are due to adulteration, probably by Big Alcohol.
  - btreecat 6mo ago
    https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0b908be6-2673-45a5-8c2f-b3b6abc1aa37 https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0b9... “As methanol is highly soluble in water, it will distil over more at the end of distillations when vapours are richer in water. That means, methanol will appear in almost equal concentration in almost all fractions of pot still distillation in reference to ethanol (i.e., as g/hL pa), until the very end where it accumulates in the so-called tailings fraction. However, even today many professional distillers believe that methanol concentrates preferably in the first fractions.” Hernández, J. A., Wörner, S., & Riedl, K. (2021). Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Regard to Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits. Foods, 10(5), 994.
- btreecat 6mo ago
  There isn't enough methanol procured during distillation to cause I'll effects. So home made spirits are safe. So if someone gets methanol poisoning from shine, it's because it was added by someone intentionally. So don't buy bootleg spirits.
angry_octet 6mo ago
Alcohol is not an antidote! It only competes with enzyme binding to slow the production of fomic acid. Fomepizole costs thousands of dollars and is often unstocked for that reason in many countries, although I guess it will become stocked in the US now. Dialysis machines are also in short supply. One mass poisoning event would overwhelm available dialysis resources in a state. >>Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to cause serious health effects. > Again, as I said, someone intentionally trying to poison you. No, someone in the supply chain making cash. Someone swapped in some 20% methanol and hoped it would go unnoticed. You can cherry pick a study from Texas where there are hardcore home distillers, but that won't change what happens when a heap of amateurs across the country do it. Eg Turkey https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11097313/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11097313/ Also let's not ignore the toxic copper and lead in the moonshine. It is a persistent problem. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0196064401593828 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01960... Obviously you are going to hold tight to your beliefs. Please spread them somewhere else.
- btreecat 6mo ago
  I didn't say antidote, I did say its used in treatment. How do you imagine a mass poisoning event is going to occur? Is it something like a mass ecoli or salmonella event? >No, someone in the supply chain making cash. Someone swapped in some 20% methanol and hoped it would go unnoticed. How does that have anything to do with home made and unsold products? You're raising a valid issue with any tainted consumable, not something specific to home distillation. >Also let's not ignore the toxic copper and lead in the moonshine. It is a persistent problem. You can, if you do what's common and build out of stainless steel. And again we're talking home consumption. Why are you the police of what I poison myself with? >Obviously you are going to hold tight to your beliefs. Please spread them somewhere else I'm sticking with the data, you are angry and wrong. Your ignorance at this point is willful. GLWT.
- btreecat 6mo ago
  > A 10% ethanol solution administered intravenously is a safe and effective antidote for severe methanol poisoning. Ethanol therapy is recommended when plasma methanol concentrations are higher than 20 mg per dl, when ingested doses are greater than 30 ml and when there is evidence of acidosis or visual abnormalities in cases of suspected methanol poisoning. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/ So I their words, it is an antitode, effective and recommended treatment.

Anamon 6mo ago

From how I'm reading this, you're disagreeing with the parent but your quotes actually support what they wrote? Ethanol is not an antidote or "cure", it's more or less an attempt at dilution. There are other posts in this thread explaining why it's dangerous to believe that methanol poisoning can simply be counteracted with ethanol. >Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to cause serious health effects. I don't think the "to" here is meant to imply intent. It's "enough to", referring to the amount. I don't know where the notion comes from that people try to intentionally poison people with moonshine. Maybe in a Columbo episode. It happens when people cut corners or don't pay attention or get scammed.

angry_octet 6mo ago
The US Govt did it during prohibition. It has been retconned by wacky homebrew fringe into a belief that all poisonings are due to adulteration, probably by Big Alcohol.
- btreecat 6mo ago
  https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0b908be6-2673-45a5-8c2f-b3b6abc1aa37 https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0b9... “As methanol is highly soluble in water, it will distil over more at the end of distillations when vapours are richer in water. That means, methanol will appear in almost equal concentration in almost all fractions of pot still distillation in reference to ethanol (i.e., as g/hL pa), until the very end where it accumulates in the so-called tailings fraction. However, even today many professional distillers believe that methanol concentrates preferably in the first fractions.” Hernández, J. A., Wörner, S., & Riedl, K. (2021). Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Regard to Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits. Foods, 10(5), 994.
btreecat 6mo ago
There isn't enough methanol procured during distillation to cause I'll effects. So home made spirits are safe. So if someone gets methanol poisoning from shine, it's because it was added by someone intentionally. So don't buy bootleg spirits.

angry_octet 6mo ago

Alcohol is not an antidote! It only competes with enzyme binding to slow the production of fomic acid. Fomepizole costs thousands of dollars and is often unstocked for that reason in many countries, although I guess it will become stocked in the US now. Dialysis machines are also in short supply. One mass poisoning event would overwhelm available dialysis resources in a state. >>Bootleg brewers also sometimes add enough methanol to informally produced spirits to cause serious health effects. > Again, as I said, someone intentionally trying to poison you. No, someone in the supply chain making cash. Someone swapped in some 20% methanol and hoped it would go unnoticed. You can cherry pick a study from Texas where there are hardcore home distillers, but that won't change what happens when a heap of amateurs across the country do it. Eg Turkey https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11097313/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11097313/ Also let's not ignore the toxic copper and lead in the moonshine. It is a persistent problem. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0196064401593828 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01960... Obviously you are going to hold tight to your beliefs. Please spread them somewhere else.

btreecat 6mo ago
I didn't say antidote, I did say its used in treatment. How do you imagine a mass poisoning event is going to occur? Is it something like a mass ecoli or salmonella event? >No, someone in the supply chain making cash. Someone swapped in some 20% methanol and hoped it would go unnoticed. How does that have anything to do with home made and unsold products? You're raising a valid issue with any tainted consumable, not something specific to home distillation. >Also let's not ignore the toxic copper and lead in the moonshine. It is a persistent problem. You can, if you do what's common and build out of stainless steel. And again we're talking home consumption. Why are you the police of what I poison myself with? >Obviously you are going to hold tight to your beliefs. Please spread them somewhere else I'm sticking with the data, you are angry and wrong. Your ignorance at this point is willful. GLWT.
btreecat 6mo ago
> A 10% ethanol solution administered intravenously is a safe and effective antidote for severe methanol poisoning. Ethanol therapy is recommended when plasma methanol concentrations are higher than 20 mg per dl, when ingested doses are greater than 30 ml and when there is evidence of acidosis or visual abnormalities in cases of suspected methanol poisoning. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1306022/ So I their words, it is an antitode, effective and recommended treatment.