13 ms·

OccupySandy is like a startup

42 points by SandersAK 14y ago

tokenizer 14y ago
This was one thing I really enjoyed about camping out at Occupy last year. Most of the people being involved at the 'getting shit done' level, wanted to get stuff done, respected other's opinions, and left their ego in their tent.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- untog 14y ago
  Not to be devil's advocate too much, but if that was the case then why was nothing ever done? To the outsider, Occupy (Wall St, at least) was the very opposite of "getting shit done"- it had the world's attention for a number of weeks and appeared to do absolutely nothing with it, before fading away.
  - pyrotechnick 14y ago
    To the outsider
    - untog 14y ago
      Which is pretty important, if you want to do that whole "inspire the people to rise up" thing that Occupy Wall St was about.
  - SandersAK 14y ago
    I'm totally with you - I was super skeptic of Occupy and was definitely a hater during the wall street protests. With that said, I've been impressed by what they have achieved compared to the likes of FEMA and Red Cross here in NY. Consider me a convert ;)
  - shaunxcode 14y ago
    And yet here we are on a thread months later discussing the occupy movement. A movement like this is async and concurrent. Promises declared are not immediately kept (opportunity must arise) - but that does not mean you can treat them as broken.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    It sounds like you relied on the shallow, useless coverage in the mainstream media. Some of these are gone, but it's the first directory I found: http://directory.occupy.net/ http://directory.occupy.net/
    - untog 14y ago
      Right, I know that a lot of organisations exist. But what have they achieved?
      - pyrotechnick 14y ago
        What part about "occupy" - an occupation - don't you understand? You will forever struggle to pigeon-hole occupy into something that fits inside our tiny monkey brains because there was never an agenda to begin with. It is a celebration of life on this planet. A stance in solidarity with those far less fortunate. An admission of our insignificance in the grand design of the cosmos. A message to the rest of creation: "here we are". If you miss any of this; you miss it.
        lazerwalker 14y ago
        > What part about "occupy" - an occupation - don't you understand? I'm the sort of person, probably just like untog, whose knowledge of occupy mostly comes from the mainstream media. I've tried to read some of your guys' materials online or watch videos for an alternate viewpoint, but nothing's been particularly helpful or clear. As far as I've been led to understand from the media, OWS is a "political movement" that basically failed to accomplish any meaningful political change because of a lack of coherent agenda. There's clearly more to you guys than that, and I'm sure that portrayal is inaccurate to the point of severe insult. So my challenge to you is to explain it better. Or point me to someone who can. Assume I don't "get" occupy, because I don't. But I want to. Telling me that it's "an admission of our insignificance in the grand design of the cosmos" is a fantastically beautiful sentiment, but that gets me no closer to actually understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it, or why I should care.
  - SwellJoe 14y ago
    You've been misinformed, on all fronts, and that's not surprising, given the way it has been portrayed in mainstream media. It's endlessly amusing, but also a little disturbing, to me that Occupy has been declared dead, continually, since almost its first few days of existence over a year ago. And, yet, every time an Occupy thing shows up (which is frequently; Occupy events and actions are happening every single day across the US) the news reports it as an isolated anomaly ("Occupy Wall St. had one last gasp today." and a week later act shocked, or, more likely, simply ignore it, when some new Occupy event or action happens). This is another example of that downplaying of the reality of OWS; "Oh, my goodness! You mean OWS still exists? I had no idea!" While thousands of Occupiers help the poorest neighborhoods get back on their feet...the only reason you hear about it, is because it's too big to ignore, though there's certainly plenty of folks trying to continue to ignore it. Maybe you should be asking why the media you trust is misrepresenting a mainstream movement like this on a continual basis, and for whose benefit? OWS changed the political landscape in pretty dramatic ways, and continues to do so (and to deny that is to deny reality). But, for the folks who expected OWS (and Occupy groups nationwide) to take up the "Tea Party of the Left" mantle, and do politic-y things, like electing candidates to office, it looks like a failure. But, it wasn't and isn't a Tea Party of the left, and baked right into its very being is a set of values and a culture that would make such an outcome very unlikely (and undesired by most of its participants). Occupy folks are very likely involved in every activist community in your city, right now. They may not even be involved in an Occupation anymore, and there may not be a very active local Occupation in your city (though you might be surprised; there's one still quite active here in Austin, and I know SF/Oakland, NYC, Chicago, and many others are still active)...but OWS or a local Occupation is what turned them from an armchair activist into one who goes outside and does things. That's true for a huge swath of people, and I think its impact has been wildly underestimated.
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      Have you considered how much this point of view is 'church like' ? If you boil it down to the basics, of "big idea that we're all important" plus "help by doing, not by talking" you will see a lot of churches organizing their volunteer efforts around those same exact concepts. And the ego check? well they usually ask you to accept that God is in the driver seat, you're just there to be His agent. The message here is "life isn't a spectator sport" and I'm glad to see that message take hold regardless of its origin.
pyrotechnick 14y ago
Natural disasters are a blessing in disguise; at least for those who survive. Gaia often reminds us here in Australia that no matter how much we plan, how safe we feel, despite how high we build our dams, we're ultimately at her mercy. The sense of community recent events seemed to extract from what is otherwise a reasonably un-spirited populace was nothing short of phenomenal. Humanity indeed possesses great redeeming qualities. I wish all the best to anyone effected by the recent events. And my heart goes out to the friends and families of those less fortunate. Please. Try to see it for what it is. An opportunity to rekindle your relationship with nature. To reflect on what's truly important. To fill the voids with something even greater than before.
- gadders 14y ago
  That must be a lot of comfort to people who have had their house washed away.
  - pyrotechnick 14y ago
    Way to shoot the messenger. It's nature you should be upset with; as it is very much upset with you. All those houses of sticks built on shifting sands. All those priceless, irreplaceable material possessions. What a tragedy! Didn't the three little pigs teach you anything?
    - gadders 14y ago
      I'm not sure if this is not some incredible satire that is too subtle for me to recognise, but I suspect if you were to repeat this message on parts of the Jerser Shore they might quite literally shoot the messenger.
littlegiantcap 14y ago
These are just the general characteristics of any effective organization. I really don't see how Occupy Sandy is anything like a startup though. Steve Blank defines a startup as "a startup is an organization formed to search for a repeatable and scalable business model." Copying the tactics of existing disaster response organizations (albeit with a grass roots spin) Is hardly anything like a startup.
- SandersAK 14y ago
  I think it's fair that most effective organizations do the same things. One thing that stands out there is the lack of rigid hierarchy in decision making. If you want to start making PB&Js to help out you can, you don't need to register, get orientation etc. I also think that Occupy Sandy is building a repeatable and scalable output - that is relief effort for a disaster. They iterate constantly on their ability to gather, parse, and disseminate donation goods and manpower.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I happened to be in New York a little over a year ago. Going down to check out Occupy Wall Street, I took a wrong turn and wandered into a high-level organizational meeting. They struck me as very similar to a startup in culture. Smart people with mutual respect and a shared mission dealing adaptively with complicated issues. Rapid delegation, low on hierarchy, experimental, collaborative, supportive. I was impressed as hell. It was very different than the culture in an established hierarchical organization. I agree that startups are up to something fundamentally different, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a ton in common.
guelo 14y ago
Occupy is absolutely not like a startup where you have a top-down CEO trying to generate a culture that promotes getting shit done. Occupy works on socialist/anarchist principles and is more like a worker co-op. If you want to get something done you have to start off by putting in the work, then as other people see you being effective they join in and contribute their own energy and ideas. Unfortunately this kind of organization, while good at empowering individuals, is bad at quick tactical responses such as when facing a well organized adversary like the local politicians and police.
- SandersAK 14y ago
  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, the expectation to each person to complete tasks and projects, the understanding that culture is about mutual understanding, and the sheer volume of production they've produced given their lack of resources is exactly like a startup. To your point, well organized adversaries like local politicians and police are akin to pre-existing companies and vertical leaders who take too much time to act and are bogged down in rhetoric and bureaucracy. Like any analogy, this one definitely has its limitations, but the points I made were things that struck me as uncannily similar to my experience working with my team on Backspaces. That's just my perspective though, and can certainly see where you're coming from.
- EthanHeilman 14y ago
  I think many start ups are de-facto anarchist in the sense that tasks and decisions are made laterally and without regard for status. In fact most human organisations reflect anarchist principals at the small scale, the anarchist program is merely an attempt at scaling these tendencies. >If you want to get something done you have to start off by putting in the work, then as other people see you being effective they join in and contribute their own energy and ideas. This sounds exactly like a start-up and the way occupy is/was organized. The spirit of iterate like mad, fail quickly and replicate successful ideas, much of which comes from modern military thinkers (for instance John Boyd's OODA loop -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop ). Such theories actually have deep utility in adversarial settings. >Unfortunately this kind of organization, while good at empowering individuals is bad at quick tactical responses such as when facing a well organized adversary, such as local politicians and police. I would argue this form of organisation is excellent at quick tactical responses, but generally bad at longer range strategic plans (which is generally ok, since long term strategic planning is near impossible at the tempo of modern business/conflicts). Look at the shift in military affairs toward pushing decision making down the change of command (what is often called network centric warfare).
gadders 14y ago
Full of hipsters?

42 points by SandersAK 14y ago

This was one thing I really enjoyed about camping out at Occupy last year. Most of the people being involved at the 'getting shit done' level, wanted to get stuff done, respected other's opinions, and left their ego in their tent.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
untog 14y ago
Not to be devil's advocate too much, but if that was the case then why was nothing ever done? To the outsider, Occupy (Wall St, at least) was the very opposite of "getting shit done"- it had the world's attention for a number of weeks and appeared to do absolutely nothing with it, before fading away.
- pyrotechnick 14y ago
  To the outsider
  - untog 14y ago
    Which is pretty important, if you want to do that whole "inspire the people to rise up" thing that Occupy Wall St was about.
- SandersAK 14y ago
  I'm totally with you - I was super skeptic of Occupy and was definitely a hater during the wall street protests. With that said, I've been impressed by what they have achieved compared to the likes of FEMA and Red Cross here in NY. Consider me a convert ;)
- shaunxcode 14y ago
  And yet here we are on a thread months later discussing the occupy movement. A movement like this is async and concurrent. Promises declared are not immediately kept (opportunity must arise) - but that does not mean you can treat them as broken.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  It sounds like you relied on the shallow, useless coverage in the mainstream media. Some of these are gone, but it's the first directory I found: http://directory.occupy.net/ http://directory.occupy.net/
  - untog 14y ago
    Right, I know that a lot of organisations exist. But what have they achieved?
    - pyrotechnick 14y ago
      What part about "occupy" - an occupation - don't you understand? You will forever struggle to pigeon-hole occupy into something that fits inside our tiny monkey brains because there was never an agenda to begin with. It is a celebration of life on this planet. A stance in solidarity with those far less fortunate. An admission of our insignificance in the grand design of the cosmos. A message to the rest of creation: "here we are". If you miss any of this; you miss it.
      - lazerwalker 14y ago
        > What part about "occupy" - an occupation - don't you understand? I'm the sort of person, probably just like untog, whose knowledge of occupy mostly comes from the mainstream media. I've tried to read some of your guys' materials online or watch videos for an alternate viewpoint, but nothing's been particularly helpful or clear. As far as I've been led to understand from the media, OWS is a "political movement" that basically failed to accomplish any meaningful political change because of a lack of coherent agenda. There's clearly more to you guys than that, and I'm sure that portrayal is inaccurate to the point of severe insult. So my challenge to you is to explain it better. Or point me to someone who can. Assume I don't "get" occupy, because I don't. But I want to. Telling me that it's "an admission of our insignificance in the grand design of the cosmos" is a fantastically beautiful sentiment, but that gets me no closer to actually understanding what you're doing, why you're doing it, or why I should care.
- SwellJoe 14y ago
  You've been misinformed, on all fronts, and that's not surprising, given the way it has been portrayed in mainstream media. It's endlessly amusing, but also a little disturbing, to me that Occupy has been declared dead, continually, since almost its first few days of existence over a year ago. And, yet, every time an Occupy thing shows up (which is frequently; Occupy events and actions are happening every single day across the US) the news reports it as an isolated anomaly ("Occupy Wall St. had one last gasp today." and a week later act shocked, or, more likely, simply ignore it, when some new Occupy event or action happens). This is another example of that downplaying of the reality of OWS; "Oh, my goodness! You mean OWS still exists? I had no idea!" While thousands of Occupiers help the poorest neighborhoods get back on their feet...the only reason you hear about it, is because it's too big to ignore, though there's certainly plenty of folks trying to continue to ignore it. Maybe you should be asking why the media you trust is misrepresenting a mainstream movement like this on a continual basis, and for whose benefit? OWS changed the political landscape in pretty dramatic ways, and continues to do so (and to deny that is to deny reality). But, for the folks who expected OWS (and Occupy groups nationwide) to take up the "Tea Party of the Left" mantle, and do politic-y things, like electing candidates to office, it looks like a failure. But, it wasn't and isn't a Tea Party of the left, and baked right into its very being is a set of values and a culture that would make such an outcome very unlikely (and undesired by most of its participants). Occupy folks are very likely involved in every activist community in your city, right now. They may not even be involved in an Occupation anymore, and there may not be a very active local Occupation in your city (though you might be surprised; there's one still quite active here in Austin, and I know SF/Oakland, NYC, Chicago, and many others are still active)...but OWS or a local Occupation is what turned them from an armchair activist into one who goes outside and does things. That's true for a huge swath of people, and I think its impact has been wildly underestimated.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Have you considered how much this point of view is 'church like' ? If you boil it down to the basics, of "big idea that we're all important" plus "help by doing, not by talking" you will see a lot of churches organizing their volunteer efforts around those same exact concepts. And the ego check? well they usually ask you to accept that God is in the driver seat, you're just there to be His agent. The message here is "life isn't a spectator sport" and I'm glad to see that message take hold regardless of its origin.

pyrotechnick 14y ago

Natural disasters are a blessing in disguise; at least for those who survive. Gaia often reminds us here in Australia that no matter how much we plan, how safe we feel, despite how high we build our dams, we're ultimately at her mercy. The sense of community recent events seemed to extract from what is otherwise a reasonably un-spirited populace was nothing short of phenomenal. Humanity indeed possesses great redeeming qualities. I wish all the best to anyone effected by the recent events. And my heart goes out to the friends and families of those less fortunate. Please. Try to see it for what it is. An opportunity to rekindle your relationship with nature. To reflect on what's truly important. To fill the voids with something even greater than before.

gadders 14y ago
That must be a lot of comfort to people who have had their house washed away.
- pyrotechnick 14y ago
  Way to shoot the messenger. It's nature you should be upset with; as it is very much upset with you. All those houses of sticks built on shifting sands. All those priceless, irreplaceable material possessions. What a tragedy! Didn't the three little pigs teach you anything?
  - gadders 14y ago
    I'm not sure if this is not some incredible satire that is too subtle for me to recognise, but I suspect if you were to repeat this message on parts of the Jerser Shore they might quite literally shoot the messenger.

littlegiantcap 14y ago

These are just the general characteristics of any effective organization. I really don't see how Occupy Sandy is anything like a startup though. Steve Blank defines a startup as "a startup is an organization formed to search for a repeatable and scalable business model." Copying the tactics of existing disaster response organizations (albeit with a grass roots spin) Is hardly anything like a startup.

SandersAK 14y ago
I think it's fair that most effective organizations do the same things. One thing that stands out there is the lack of rigid hierarchy in decision making. If you want to start making PB&Js to help out you can, you don't need to register, get orientation etc. I also think that Occupy Sandy is building a repeatable and scalable output - that is relief effort for a disaster. They iterate constantly on their ability to gather, parse, and disseminate donation goods and manpower.
wpietri 14y ago
I happened to be in New York a little over a year ago. Going down to check out Occupy Wall Street, I took a wrong turn and wandered into a high-level organizational meeting. They struck me as very similar to a startup in culture. Smart people with mutual respect and a shared mission dealing adaptively with complicated issues. Rapid delegation, low on hierarchy, experimental, collaborative, supportive. I was impressed as hell. It was very different than the culture in an established hierarchical organization. I agree that startups are up to something fundamentally different, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a ton in common.

guelo 14y ago

Occupy is absolutely not like a startup where you have a top-down CEO trying to generate a culture that promotes getting shit done. Occupy works on socialist/anarchist principles and is more like a worker co-op. If you want to get something done you have to start off by putting in the work, then as other people see you being effective they join in and contribute their own energy and ideas. Unfortunately this kind of organization, while good at empowering individuals, is bad at quick tactical responses such as when facing a well organized adversary like the local politicians and police.

SandersAK 14y ago
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, the expectation to each person to complete tasks and projects, the understanding that culture is about mutual understanding, and the sheer volume of production they've produced given their lack of resources is exactly like a startup. To your point, well organized adversaries like local politicians and police are akin to pre-existing companies and vertical leaders who take too much time to act and are bogged down in rhetoric and bureaucracy. Like any analogy, this one definitely has its limitations, but the points I made were things that struck me as uncannily similar to my experience working with my team on Backspaces. That's just my perspective though, and can certainly see where you're coming from.
EthanHeilman 14y ago
I think many start ups are de-facto anarchist in the sense that tasks and decisions are made laterally and without regard for status. In fact most human organisations reflect anarchist principals at the small scale, the anarchist program is merely an attempt at scaling these tendencies. >If you want to get something done you have to start off by putting in the work, then as other people see you being effective they join in and contribute their own energy and ideas. This sounds exactly like a start-up and the way occupy is/was organized. The spirit of iterate like mad, fail quickly and replicate successful ideas, much of which comes from modern military thinkers (for instance John Boyd's OODA loop -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop ). Such theories actually have deep utility in adversarial settings. >Unfortunately this kind of organization, while good at empowering individuals is bad at quick tactical responses such as when facing a well organized adversary, such as local politicians and police. I would argue this form of organisation is excellent at quick tactical responses, but generally bad at longer range strategic plans (which is generally ok, since long term strategic planning is near impossible at the tempo of modern business/conflicts). Look at the shift in military affairs toward pushing decision making down the change of command (what is often called network centric warfare).

gadders 14y ago

Full of hipsters?