3 ms·

>>At least 9 out of every 10 software engineers I know does all their development on a mac I work in video games, you know, industry larger than films - 10 out

>>At least 9 out of every 10 software engineers I know does all their development on a mac I work in video games, you know, industry larger than films - 10 out of 10 devs I know are on Windows. I have a work issued Mac just to do some iOS dev and I honestly don't understand how anyone can use it day to day as their main dev machine, it's just so restrictive in what the OS allows you to do.

st3fan 6mo ago
Weird .. macOS is still completely open is my experience. Can you give an example?
- gambiting 6mo ago
  I compile a tool we use, send it to another developer, they can't open it without going through system settings because the OS thinks it's unsafe. There is no blanket easy way to disable this behaviour. We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation and starting with Tahoe that started to fail - we discovered that it's because of SIP(system integrity protection). We reached out to apple, got the answer that "we will not discuss any functionality related to operation of SIP". Great. So now we either have to disable SIP on every development machine(which IT is very unhappy about) or re-sign the clang executable with our own dev key so that the OS leaves us alone.
  - 10000truths 6mo ago
    If SIP is kicking in, it sounds like you're using the clang that comes with Apple's developer tools. Does this same issue occur with clang sourced from homebrew, or from LLVM's own binary releases?
    - gambiting 6mo ago
      Yes, it kicks in even with non apple supplied clang(most notably, with the clang supplied as part of the Android toolchain, since we sometimes build Android on MacOS and having to re-sign the google-supplied clang with our own certificate is now a regular thing every time there is an update released).
  - fragmede 6mo ago
    If it's being sent to another developer then asking them to run xattr -rd com.apple.quarantine on the file so they can run it doesn't seem insurmountable. I agree that it's a non-starter to ask marketing or sales to do that, but developers can manage. Having to sign and then upload the binary to Apple to notarize is also annoying but you put it in a script and go about your day. But Apple being "completely open", it is not.
  - saagarjha 6mo ago
    > We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation I am curious what you are doing
    - gambiting 6mo ago
      We use Unreal Build Accelerator which injects a custom dlib into clang to intercept the compilation process and distribute it to worker machines.
      - saagarjha 6mo ago
        I’m curious why this needs to be code injection and not, like, a shell script?
        gambiting 6mo ago
        Because...it's official behaviour that is fully supported by clang? If you want to add a hook on compilation start, it's literally the documented way - you include your own dlib with necessary overrides and then you can call your own methods at each compilation step. Not even sure how you'd do it with a shell script? You need to have knowledge of all the compilation and linking units, which....you have from within Clang.
        saagarjha 6mo ago
        What's the interface this uses? I don't think I am familiar with it
        gambiting 6mo ago
        There's a very good explanation in this presentation :-) https://static.linaro.org/connect/yvr18/presentations/yvr18-223.pdf https://static.linaro.org/connect/yvr18/presentations/yvr18-...
fortran77 6mo ago
I work as a consultant for the position, navigation, and timing industry and 10 of 10 devs were on Windows. Before that I worked for a big hollywood company and while scriptwriters and VP executive assistants had Macs, everyone technical was on Windows. Movies were all edited and color graded on Windows.
array_key_first 6mo ago
It makes sense that you use Windows in a video game company. We use windows as well at work and it's absolutely awful for development. I would really prefer a Linux desktop, especially since we exclusively deploy to Linux.
charcircuit 6mo ago
>it's just so restrictive in what the OS allows you to do. The people using them typically aren't being paid to customize their OS. The OS is good for if you just want to get stuff done and don't want to worry about the OS.

st3fan 6mo ago

Weird .. macOS is still completely open is my experience. Can you give an example?

gambiting 6mo ago
I compile a tool we use, send it to another developer, they can't open it without going through system settings because the OS thinks it's unsafe. There is no blanket easy way to disable this behaviour. We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation and starting with Tahoe that started to fail - we discovered that it's because of SIP(system integrity protection). We reached out to apple, got the answer that "we will not discuss any functionality related to operation of SIP". Great. So now we either have to disable SIP on every development machine(which IT is very unhappy about) or re-sign the clang executable with our own dev key so that the OS leaves us alone.
- 10000truths 6mo ago
  If SIP is kicking in, it sounds like you're using the clang that comes with Apple's developer tools. Does this same issue occur with clang sourced from homebrew, or from LLVM's own binary releases?
  - gambiting 6mo ago
    Yes, it kicks in even with non apple supplied clang(most notably, with the clang supplied as part of the Android toolchain, since we sometimes build Android on MacOS and having to re-sign the google-supplied clang with our own certificate is now a regular thing every time there is an update released).
- fragmede 6mo ago
  If it's being sent to another developer then asking them to run xattr -rd com.apple.quarantine on the file so they can run it doesn't seem insurmountable. I agree that it's a non-starter to ask marketing or sales to do that, but developers can manage. Having to sign and then upload the binary to Apple to notarize is also annoying but you put it in a script and go about your day. But Apple being "completely open", it is not.
- saagarjha 6mo ago
  > We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation I am curious what you are doing
  - gambiting 6mo ago
    We use Unreal Build Accelerator which injects a custom dlib into clang to intercept the compilation process and distribute it to worker machines.
    - saagarjha 6mo ago
      I’m curious why this needs to be code injection and not, like, a shell script?
      - gambiting 6mo ago
        Because...it's official behaviour that is fully supported by clang? If you want to add a hook on compilation start, it's literally the documented way - you include your own dlib with necessary overrides and then you can call your own methods at each compilation step. Not even sure how you'd do it with a shell script? You need to have knowledge of all the compilation and linking units, which....you have from within Clang.
        saagarjha 6mo ago
        What's the interface this uses? I don't think I am familiar with it
        gambiting 6mo ago
        There's a very good explanation in this presentation :-) https://static.linaro.org/connect/yvr18/presentations/yvr18-223.pdf https://static.linaro.org/connect/yvr18/presentations/yvr18-...

fortran77 6mo ago

I work as a consultant for the position, navigation, and timing industry and 10 of 10 devs were on Windows. Before that I worked for a big hollywood company and while scriptwriters and VP executive assistants had Macs, everyone technical was on Windows. Movies were all edited and color graded on Windows.

array_key_first 6mo ago

It makes sense that you use Windows in a video game company. We use windows as well at work and it's absolutely awful for development. I would really prefer a Linux desktop, especially since we exclusively deploy to Linux.

charcircuit 6mo ago

>it's just so restrictive in what the OS allows you to do. The people using them typically aren't being paid to customize their OS. The OS is good for if you just want to get stuff done and don't want to worry about the OS.