4 ms·

Uhhh why would they do that when they can just buy them for super cheap at industrial scale from the US? And yes the solution to things like organized crime is

Uhhh why would they do that when they can just buy them for super cheap at industrial scale from the US? And yes the solution to things like organized crime is always just a continuous chipping away and adding friction where you can. Not giving them massive amounts of cheap, high quality firearms seems like a meaningful goal.

15155 7mo ago
This is a popular idea amongst American liberals who rejoice at any possible means to eliminate/curb/add friction to lawful firearms ownership and manufacturing. Where are they buying firearms in America at an "industrial scale?" An AR-15 receiver can be turned out in tens of minutes on a fast VMC - good luck stopping this.
- consumer451 7mo ago
  https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2019-2024 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-par... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2018-2023 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking-mexico https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking...
  - 15155 7mo ago
    Yep, just keep spamming these links. I'll keep milling, good luck with your agenda.
    - consumer451 7mo ago
      Yes, showing the preponderance of evidence against your easily disproven argument is actually "my agenda." Great job on calling that out. I grew up hunting. Like any other redneck, I fired a .308 at 13yrs old, and yes it knocked me to the ground, lol. Skinned a dear that same year. I just didn't choose to make guns my entire identity. All I am stating is the obvious. The USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter.
      - 15155 7mo ago
        It's not "disproven" - when an organization can buy a $30k machine and crank out high-quality firearms all day long, you can't do anything to stop it.
        consumer451 7mo ago
        All you have done is shown that you have no idea how difficult and time consuming machining is, vs. mass production.
        15155 7mo ago
        I know for a fact that mass methamphetamine and fentanyl synthesis is more technically-difficult, more time consuming, and more capital-intensive than mass-manufacture of firearms - but good luck pushing your "Iron River" narrative lmao.
        consumer451 7mo ago
        At the risk of setting off the flame war detector on this website, please explain to me why simple chemistry that can be done anywhere, is easier than setting up a mass-manufacturing factory. I challenge you to explain to the exact relative differences. Also, why did you bring up fentanyl? How is that related to the very well documented Iron River? Well, I suppose it actually is, as the USA's very well documented supply of guns to Mexican cartels helps them bring up fent into the USA. Yay! Sorry to interrupt your previous narrative. Please, go on king.
        15155 7mo ago
        Gee, one requires huge industrial laboratories complete with niche equipment, highly-controlled precursors in massive quantities, and trained chemists.. the other requires commonly-available machinery and universally-obtainable, cheap materials and a scrappy high-school student who excelled in shop class. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. I can have a receiver milled from billet in the time we've spent discussing this. Even the data you linked explains: Privately Made Firearms Law enforcement agencies recovered and submitted 37,980 suspected privately made firearms4 (PMFs) to ATF for tracing between 2017 and 2021. It is probable that current trace data significantly underrepresents the number of PMFs recovered in crimes by LEAs due to a variety of challenges presented by PMFs, to include: • PMFs involvement in crime is an emerging issue and LEAs are just beginning to institute uniform training on the recognition, identification, and reporting of PMFs that can lead to more accurate PMF data being collected. • PMFs by their nature may have no markings at all, duplicative markings, counterfeit markings, or markings that appear to be serial numbers on parts of the firearm other than the frame or receiver. These duplicative, counterfeit, or erroneous markings can be mistaken for authentic serial numbers and markings causing law enforcement to not recognize the firearm as a PMF and/or potentially follow false leads based on these markings. As Figure OFT-04 reflects, the number of suspected PMFs recovered by law enforcement agencies and submitted to ATF for tracing increased by 1,083% from 2017 (1,629) to 2021 (19,273). So, just domestically, home private firearms manufacturing totaled more units than all guns traced into Mexico in every given year.
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
- estearum 7mo ago
  What’s the relevance of who “this is a popular idea” to? It’s either a good idea or it’s not. If it’s so easy, then why aren’t they doing that today and instead we just encounter thousands of guns bought in the US? Must be because that’s easier, correct? I get the sense you’re a bit pre-committed to your position here though and perceive this as a bit of an identity question.
luckylion 7mo ago
I think the point was: it might be a bit more expensive for them, but it wouldn't stop them from getting guns. Guns are important to their business, they would manufacture them themselves if they could not buy them. Would it cost them more? yes. would it be the "number 1 priority" because it's so impactful? no, obviously not.
- estearum 7mo ago
  It's quite evident their point is that they don't want gun control and have pre-committed to whatever opinions are necessary to prevent it, including an opinion as absurd as "having to manufacture their own firearms would not be a significant impediment to their operations." Mass synthesis of the drugs that cartels produce is trivial (that's why they produce them) Putting drugs on trucks is trivial (that's why they do that) Rudimentary semi-submersible vessels are impressive but you only need a few and they're not that hard to make (again, that's why they make em) The telecom stuff they do is legitimately pretty impressive, but this too is just significant capex for long term benefit -- not so with self-made guns which are significant capex and you get out the other side a low volume of low-quality, non-dependable, often-breaking guns.
- JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
  > it wouldn't stop them from getting guns Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of making guns. But I'm aware of zero conflicts in which small arms were manufactured in situ. Even in e.g. Myanmar/Burma. The fact that even remote conflicts go through the trouble of importing arms suggests this might be more difficult than you suggest.
  - mothballed 7mo ago
    I'm fascinated by your point on Myanmar/Burma since I'm quite sure you used that point since it's common knowledge that is the most commonly cited example of the use of in situ firearms by militia. Maybe you're inviting a debate on why you think the reports on in situ firearms reported there are false, or maybe you just randomly came upon that, but it doesn't seem a coincedence.

15155 7mo ago

This is a popular idea amongst American liberals who rejoice at any possible means to eliminate/curb/add friction to lawful firearms ownership and manufacturing. Where are they buying firearms in America at an "industrial scale?" An AR-15 receiver can be turned out in tens of minutes on a fast VMC - good luck stopping this.

consumer451 7mo ago
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2019-2024 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-par... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2018-2023 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking-mexico https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking...
- 15155 7mo ago
  Yep, just keep spamming these links. I'll keep milling, good luck with your agenda.
  - consumer451 7mo ago
    Yes, showing the preponderance of evidence against your easily disproven argument is actually "my agenda." Great job on calling that out. I grew up hunting. Like any other redneck, I fired a .308 at 13yrs old, and yes it knocked me to the ground, lol. Skinned a dear that same year. I just didn't choose to make guns my entire identity. All I am stating is the obvious. The USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter.
    - 15155 7mo ago
      It's not "disproven" - when an organization can buy a $30k machine and crank out high-quality firearms all day long, you can't do anything to stop it.
      - consumer451 7mo ago
        All you have done is shown that you have no idea how difficult and time consuming machining is, vs. mass production.
        15155 7mo ago
        I know for a fact that mass methamphetamine and fentanyl synthesis is more technically-difficult, more time consuming, and more capital-intensive than mass-manufacture of firearms - but good luck pushing your "Iron River" narrative lmao.
        consumer451 7mo ago
        At the risk of setting off the flame war detector on this website, please explain to me why simple chemistry that can be done anywhere, is easier than setting up a mass-manufacturing factory. I challenge you to explain to the exact relative differences. Also, why did you bring up fentanyl? How is that related to the very well documented Iron River? Well, I suppose it actually is, as the USA's very well documented supply of guns to Mexican cartels helps them bring up fent into the USA. Yay! Sorry to interrupt your previous narrative. Please, go on king.
        15155 7mo ago
        Gee, one requires huge industrial laboratories complete with niche equipment, highly-controlled precursors in massive quantities, and trained chemists.. the other requires commonly-available machinery and universally-obtainable, cheap materials and a scrappy high-school student who excelled in shop class. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. I can have a receiver milled from billet in the time we've spent discussing this. Even the data you linked explains: Privately Made Firearms Law enforcement agencies recovered and submitted 37,980 suspected privately made firearms4 (PMFs) to ATF for tracing between 2017 and 2021. It is probable that current trace data significantly underrepresents the number of PMFs recovered in crimes by LEAs due to a variety of challenges presented by PMFs, to include: • PMFs involvement in crime is an emerging issue and LEAs are just beginning to institute uniform training on the recognition, identification, and reporting of PMFs that can lead to more accurate PMF data being collected. • PMFs by their nature may have no markings at all, duplicative markings, counterfeit markings, or markings that appear to be serial numbers on parts of the firearm other than the frame or receiver. These duplicative, counterfeit, or erroneous markings can be mistaken for authentic serial numbers and markings causing law enforcement to not recognize the firearm as a PMF and/or potentially follow false leads based on these markings. As Figure OFT-04 reflects, the number of suspected PMFs recovered by law enforcement agencies and submitted to ATF for tracing increased by 1,083% from 2017 (1,629) to 2021 (19,273). So, just domestically, home private firearms manufacturing totaled more units than all guns traced into Mexico in every given year.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
estearum 7mo ago
What’s the relevance of who “this is a popular idea” to? It’s either a good idea or it’s not. If it’s so easy, then why aren’t they doing that today and instead we just encounter thousands of guns bought in the US? Must be because that’s easier, correct? I get the sense you’re a bit pre-committed to your position here though and perceive this as a bit of an identity question.

luckylion 7mo ago

I think the point was: it might be a bit more expensive for them, but it wouldn't stop them from getting guns. Guns are important to their business, they would manufacture them themselves if they could not buy them. Would it cost them more? yes. would it be the "number 1 priority" because it's so impactful? no, obviously not.

estearum 7mo ago
It's quite evident their point is that they don't want gun control and have pre-committed to whatever opinions are necessary to prevent it, including an opinion as absurd as "having to manufacture their own firearms would not be a significant impediment to their operations." Mass synthesis of the drugs that cartels produce is trivial (that's why they produce them) Putting drugs on trucks is trivial (that's why they do that) Rudimentary semi-submersible vessels are impressive but you only need a few and they're not that hard to make (again, that's why they make em) The telecom stuff they do is legitimately pretty impressive, but this too is just significant capex for long term benefit -- not so with self-made guns which are significant capex and you get out the other side a low volume of low-quality, non-dependable, often-breaking guns.
JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
> it wouldn't stop them from getting guns Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of making guns. But I'm aware of zero conflicts in which small arms were manufactured in situ. Even in e.g. Myanmar/Burma. The fact that even remote conflicts go through the trouble of importing arms suggests this might be more difficult than you suggest.
- mothballed 7mo ago
  I'm fascinated by your point on Myanmar/Burma since I'm quite sure you used that point since it's common knowledge that is the most commonly cited example of the use of in situ firearms by militia. Maybe you're inviting a debate on why you think the reports on in situ firearms reported there are false, or maybe you just randomly came upon that, but it doesn't seem a coincedence.