5 ms·

> I am curious what Mexico should do long term to reduce crime. I would imagine that the #1 priority might be to shut down the "Iron River." The Iron River is

> I am curious what Mexico should do long term to reduce crime. I would imagine that the #1 priority might be to shut down the "Iron River." The Iron River is the limitless supply of firearms from the USA to Mexican cartels. It is very well documented, and yet we rarely hear about it.

15155 6mo ago
"Iron River" - you're joking, right? These cartels can: - effectuate mass synthesis of illicit substances in commercial laboratories - handle massive intercontinental logistics - build semi-submersible boats - hire and kidnap radio engineers to help with communications and electronic warfare but gee, they just can't figure out how to buy a machine shop and hire or kidnap talent to make 100-year-old firearm designs - that's just too much for them?
- estearum 6mo ago
  Uhhh why would they do that when they can just buy them for super cheap at industrial scale from the US? And yes the solution to things like organized crime is always just a continuous chipping away and adding friction where you can. Not giving them massive amounts of cheap, high quality firearms seems like a meaningful goal.
  - 15155 6mo ago
    This is a popular idea amongst American liberals who rejoice at any possible means to eliminate/curb/add friction to lawful firearms ownership and manufacturing. Where are they buying firearms in America at an "industrial scale?" An AR-15 receiver can be turned out in tens of minutes on a fast VMC - good luck stopping this.
    - consumer451 6mo ago
      https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2019-2024 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-par... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2018-2023 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking-mexico https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking...
      - 15155 6mo ago
        Yep, just keep spamming these links. I'll keep milling, good luck with your agenda.
        consumer451 6mo ago
        Yes, showing the preponderance of evidence against your easily disproven argument is actually "my agenda." Great job on calling that out. I grew up hunting. Like any other redneck, I fired a .308 at 13yrs old, and yes it knocked me to the ground, lol. Skinned a dear that same year. I just didn't choose to make guns my entire identity. All I am stating is the obvious. The USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter.
        15155 6mo ago
        It's not "disproven" - when an organization can buy a $30k machine and crank out high-quality firearms all day long, you can't do anything to stop it.
        consumer451 6mo ago
        All you have done is shown that you have no idea how difficult and time consuming machining is, vs. mass production.
        15155 6mo ago
        I know for a fact that mass methamphetamine and fentanyl synthesis is more technically-difficult, more time consuming, and more capital-intensive than mass-manufacture of firearms - but good luck pushing your "Iron River" narrative lmao.
        consumer451 6mo ago
        At the risk of setting off the flame war detector on this website, please explain to me why simple chemistry that can be done anywhere, is easier than setting up a mass-manufacturing factory. I challenge you to explain to the exact relative differences. Also, why did you bring up fentanyl? How is that related to the very well documented Iron River? Well, I suppose it actually is, as the USA's very well documented supply of guns to Mexican cartels helps them bring up fent into the USA. Yay! Sorry to interrupt your previous narrative. Please, go on king.
    - estearum 6mo ago
      What’s the relevance of who “this is a popular idea” to? It’s either a good idea or it’s not. If it’s so easy, then why aren’t they doing that today and instead we just encounter thousands of guns bought in the US? Must be because that’s easier, correct? I get the sense you’re a bit pre-committed to your position here though and perceive this as a bit of an identity question.
  - luckylion 6mo ago
    I think the point was: it might be a bit more expensive for them, but it wouldn't stop them from getting guns. Guns are important to their business, they would manufacture them themselves if they could not buy them. Would it cost them more? yes. would it be the "number 1 priority" because it's so impactful? no, obviously not.
    - estearum 6mo ago
      It's quite evident their point is that they don't want gun control and have pre-committed to whatever opinions are necessary to prevent it, including an opinion as absurd as "having to manufacture their own firearms would not be a significant impediment to their operations." Mass synthesis of the drugs that cartels produce is trivial (that's why they produce them) Putting drugs on trucks is trivial (that's why they do that) Rudimentary semi-submersible vessels are impressive but you only need a few and they're not that hard to make (again, that's why they make em) The telecom stuff they do is legitimately pretty impressive, but this too is just significant capex for long term benefit -- not so with self-made guns which are significant capex and you get out the other side a low volume of low-quality, non-dependable, often-breaking guns.
    - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
      > it wouldn't stop them from getting guns Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of making guns. But I'm aware of zero conflicts in which small arms were manufactured in situ. Even in e.g. Myanmar/Burma. The fact that even remote conflicts go through the trouble of importing arms suggests this might be more difficult than you suggest.
      - mothballed 6mo ago
        I'm fascinated by your point on Myanmar/Burma since I'm quite sure you used that point since it's common knowledge that is the most commonly cited example of the use of in situ firearms by militia. Maybe you're inviting a debate on why you think the reports on in situ firearms reported there are false, or maybe you just randomly came upon that, but it doesn't seem a coincedence.
- consumer451 6mo ago
  https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/atf-seizes-thousands-illegal-firearms-bound-cartels-mexico https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/atf-seizes-thousands-illegal-... https://texasborderbusiness.com/thousands-of-trafficked-guns-intercepted-before-reaching-mexico/ https://texasborderbusiness.com/thousands-of-trafficked-guns... https://www.stl.news/atf-seizes-illegal-firearms-bound-mexican-cartels/ https://www.stl.news/atf-seizes-illegal-firearms-bound-mexic...
  - 15155 6mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
    - consumer451 6mo ago
      How is this a counter argument? You are playing GOP vs. Dem games. All I am saying is that the USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter. That scandal just reinforced the point.

15155 6mo ago

"Iron River" - you're joking, right? These cartels can: - effectuate mass synthesis of illicit substances in commercial laboratories - handle massive intercontinental logistics - build semi-submersible boats - hire and kidnap radio engineers to help with communications and electronic warfare but gee, they just can't figure out how to buy a machine shop and hire or kidnap talent to make 100-year-old firearm designs - that's just too much for them?

estearum 6mo ago
Uhhh why would they do that when they can just buy them for super cheap at industrial scale from the US? And yes the solution to things like organized crime is always just a continuous chipping away and adding friction where you can. Not giving them massive amounts of cheap, high quality firearms seems like a meaningful goal.
- 15155 6mo ago
  This is a popular idea amongst American liberals who rejoice at any possible means to eliminate/curb/add friction to lawful firearms ownership and manufacturing. Where are they buying firearms in America at an "industrial scale?" An AR-15 receiver can be turned out in tens of minutes on a fast VMC - good luck stopping this.
  - consumer451 6mo ago
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2019-2024 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-part-iii-crime-guns-recovered-and-traced-us/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/report/nfcta-volume-ii-par... https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/firearms-trace-data-mexico-2018-2023 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report/firearms-trace-data/fire... https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-322 https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking-mexico https://www.gao.gov/video/weapons-recovered-arms-trafficking...
    - 15155 6mo ago
      Yep, just keep spamming these links. I'll keep milling, good luck with your agenda.
      - consumer451 6mo ago
        Yes, showing the preponderance of evidence against your easily disproven argument is actually "my agenda." Great job on calling that out. I grew up hunting. Like any other redneck, I fired a .308 at 13yrs old, and yes it knocked me to the ground, lol. Skinned a dear that same year. I just didn't choose to make guns my entire identity. All I am stating is the obvious. The USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter.
        15155 6mo ago
        It's not "disproven" - when an organization can buy a $30k machine and crank out high-quality firearms all day long, you can't do anything to stop it.
        consumer451 6mo ago
        All you have done is shown that you have no idea how difficult and time consuming machining is, vs. mass production.
        15155 6mo ago
        I know for a fact that mass methamphetamine and fentanyl synthesis is more technically-difficult, more time consuming, and more capital-intensive than mass-manufacture of firearms - but good luck pushing your "Iron River" narrative lmao.
        consumer451 6mo ago
        At the risk of setting off the flame war detector on this website, please explain to me why simple chemistry that can be done anywhere, is easier than setting up a mass-manufacturing factory. I challenge you to explain to the exact relative differences. Also, why did you bring up fentanyl? How is that related to the very well documented Iron River? Well, I suppose it actually is, as the USA's very well documented supply of guns to Mexican cartels helps them bring up fent into the USA. Yay! Sorry to interrupt your previous narrative. Please, go on king.
  - estearum 6mo ago
    What’s the relevance of who “this is a popular idea” to? It’s either a good idea or it’s not. If it’s so easy, then why aren’t they doing that today and instead we just encounter thousands of guns bought in the US? Must be because that’s easier, correct? I get the sense you’re a bit pre-committed to your position here though and perceive this as a bit of an identity question.
- luckylion 6mo ago
  I think the point was: it might be a bit more expensive for them, but it wouldn't stop them from getting guns. Guns are important to their business, they would manufacture them themselves if they could not buy them. Would it cost them more? yes. would it be the "number 1 priority" because it's so impactful? no, obviously not.
  - estearum 6mo ago
    It's quite evident their point is that they don't want gun control and have pre-committed to whatever opinions are necessary to prevent it, including an opinion as absurd as "having to manufacture their own firearms would not be a significant impediment to their operations." Mass synthesis of the drugs that cartels produce is trivial (that's why they produce them) Putting drugs on trucks is trivial (that's why they do that) Rudimentary semi-submersible vessels are impressive but you only need a few and they're not that hard to make (again, that's why they make em) The telecom stuff they do is legitimately pretty impressive, but this too is just significant capex for long term benefit -- not so with self-made guns which are significant capex and you get out the other side a low volume of low-quality, non-dependable, often-breaking guns.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > it wouldn't stop them from getting guns Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of making guns. But I'm aware of zero conflicts in which small arms were manufactured in situ. Even in e.g. Myanmar/Burma. The fact that even remote conflicts go through the trouble of importing arms suggests this might be more difficult than you suggest.
    - mothballed 6mo ago
      I'm fascinated by your point on Myanmar/Burma since I'm quite sure you used that point since it's common knowledge that is the most commonly cited example of the use of in situ firearms by militia. Maybe you're inviting a debate on why you think the reports on in situ firearms reported there are false, or maybe you just randomly came upon that, but it doesn't seem a coincedence.
consumer451 6mo ago
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/atf-seizes-thousands-illegal-firearms-bound-cartels-mexico https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/atf-seizes-thousands-illegal-... https://texasborderbusiness.com/thousands-of-trafficked-guns-intercepted-before-reaching-mexico/ https://texasborderbusiness.com/thousands-of-trafficked-guns... https://www.stl.news/atf-seizes-illegal-firearms-bound-mexican-cartels/ https://www.stl.news/atf-seizes-illegal-firearms-bound-mexic...
- 15155 6mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
  - consumer451 6mo ago
    How is this a counter argument? You are playing GOP vs. Dem games. All I am saying is that the USA is a major firearms manufacturer and exporter. That scandal just reinforced the point.