4 ms·

At the height of the pandemic, the UK mandated zero-rating data for mobile connection to .gov.uk and .NHS.uk domains, along with several other charitable sites.

by edent 6mo ago

At the height of the pandemic, the UK mandated zero-rating data for mobile connection to .gov.uk and .NHS.uk domains, along with several other charitable sites. (I was part of the team working on that proposal.)

aitchnyu 6mo ago
Umm, was it more than an oppportunistic attack at net neurality?
- ratorx 6mo ago
  UK has never had net neutrality, there are many limited data phone plans that include unlimited music/video etc
  - daveoc64 6mo ago
    The UK does have net neutrality, and it's quite strictly regulated by Ofcom, which produces an annual report showing compliance and highlighting any issues it has investigated: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/internet-based-services/network-neutrality https://www.ofcom.org.uk/internet-based-services/network-neu... Things like restrictions on tethering and using a SIM in a router are forbidden. Unlike most countries, net neutrality has never been a political football in the UK. Ofcom groups zero rating schemes into three types: Type one - government and NGO services (always allowed). Type two - where categories of service (e.g. video or music streaming apps) are zero rated, but any service fitting into the category can apply to be zero rated by the network. Type three - any other kind of zero rating. Things like the VOXI Unlimited Social Media packages fit into Type Two, so are expressly permitted. For the rest, Ofcom assessed the impact on consumers, which is generally low.
    - hamdingers 6mo ago
      This is not net neutrality, all network traffic is not treated equally. Ofcom seems to have invented their own definition of net neutrality and placed it on that website, but calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. This is tiered access.
      - foldr 6mo ago
        It doesn't meet a perfect theoretical definition of net neutrality, but it's a set of defined legal limits on the extent to which providers can treat different kinds of traffic differently.
        daedrdev 6mo ago
        Ok but the main limit people care about is music and video streaming being treated differently
        foldr 6mo ago
        What would be the model of a country with stronger net neutrality laws? I think EU regulations are now a touch stronger than UK regulations due to post-Brexit divergence, but by world standards, the UK has strong net neutrality protections.
        hamdingers 6mo ago
        Net neutrality is not theoretical, it is literally the default setting. Any deviation from that default requires special effort be taken to identify network traffic and treat it differently, and as soon as you have made that effort you cannot truthfully claim to have net neutrality. The UK does not prohibit net neutrality but it does not require it either (according to the comment I replied to which I have not verified).
        foldr 6mo ago
        I guess to me this seems a bit like saying that free markets are the default setting. We’re not in some kind of perfect state of nature. We’re in a complex interconnected society where virtually everything of any importance is regulated to some extent. What you’re saying seems like saying “as soon as you impose one regulation you no longer have a free market”.
        hamdingers 6mo ago
    - pjc50 6mo ago
      The important issue of net neutrality is not so much zero rating as degradation or blocking of content and services. The OSA has forced the reverse: sites have to be non neutral as to where their traffic is going.
morkalork 6mo ago
This is... Shockingly reasonable. Would be perfect if it included other essential services e.g. domains used for online banking.
- TingPing 6mo ago
  It’s technically problematic. The ISP should have little idea of domains you visit. And they can’t already when everything works.
  - _bernd 6mo ago
    Do you have heared of IP addresses and that large institutions especially government institutions have their own blocks from the address space? Mapping these is kind of easy.
    - inemesitaffia 6mo ago
      They are likely behind (foreign) CDN's. Not that there's no BYOIP and not that it's impossible to do with shared IP's
  - pjc50 6mo ago
    Plenty of ISPs zero rate things like Facebook and other "partners". Especially easy when they control the DNS.
Markoff 6mo ago
meanwhile Czechia literally BANNED free Wi-Fi in restaurants and other establishments during COVID, so people will spend there less time, I understood the rationale if people already didn't have mobile data in phones anyway other things Czech gov banned during COVID-19 was singing in public places, no kidding! And I'm not even going to complain they banned sale of the toys, colored pencils and other items so people will spend less time in the shop, so me and kids could just look at the colored pencils behind the tape because we had to go to shop anyway.
- lucasban 6mo ago
  During COVID in Singapore, music in restaurants was banned, as people may talk more loudly to compensate.
- petre 6mo ago
  > other things Czech gov banned during COVID-19 was singing in public places, no kidding! So, wait, no Christmas carolling? Was this the doing of Babis? Then only the drunk shall sing in public places, mainly because they're too drunk to care.
  - Markoff 6mo ago
    "Church services are limited to a maximum of 100 people, and singing is prohibited; the same applies to public participation in municipal and regional government meetings." "In other regions, the operation of schools and educational facilities is being restricted in accordance with the Education Act, and that of universities in accordance with the Higher Education Act, such that singing is not part of the curriculum; furthermore, with the exception of the first stage of primary education in elementary schools, sports activities will also be temporarily excluded from the curriculum." https://vlada.gov.cz/cz/media-centrum/aktualne/vlada-vyhlasila-na-uzemi-ceske-republiky-od-pondeli-nouzovy-stav-na-30-dnu--do-18--rijna-omezila-hromadne-akce-183879/ https://vlada.gov.cz/cz/media-centrum/aktualne/vlada-vyhlasi...
ksec 6mo ago
Are you part of HMG or was it at telco level ?
- edent 6mo ago
  I was part of HMG. It was a joint effort with the telcos - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mobile-networks-remove-data-charges-for-online-nhs-coronavirus-advice https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mobile-networks-remove-da...
  - ksec 6mo ago
    Oh nice. I am surprised how many HMG colleagues I bump into on HN :)

by edent 6mo ago

aitchnyu 6mo ago

Umm, was it more than an oppportunistic attack at net neurality?

ratorx 6mo ago
UK has never had net neutrality, there are many limited data phone plans that include unlimited music/video etc
- daveoc64 6mo ago
  The UK does have net neutrality, and it's quite strictly regulated by Ofcom, which produces an annual report showing compliance and highlighting any issues it has investigated: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/internet-based-services/network-neutrality https://www.ofcom.org.uk/internet-based-services/network-neu... Things like restrictions on tethering and using a SIM in a router are forbidden. Unlike most countries, net neutrality has never been a political football in the UK. Ofcom groups zero rating schemes into three types: Type one - government and NGO services (always allowed). Type two - where categories of service (e.g. video or music streaming apps) are zero rated, but any service fitting into the category can apply to be zero rated by the network. Type three - any other kind of zero rating. Things like the VOXI Unlimited Social Media packages fit into Type Two, so are expressly permitted. For the rest, Ofcom assessed the impact on consumers, which is generally low.
  - hamdingers 6mo ago
    This is not net neutrality, all network traffic is not treated equally. Ofcom seems to have invented their own definition of net neutrality and placed it on that website, but calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. This is tiered access.
    - foldr 6mo ago
      It doesn't meet a perfect theoretical definition of net neutrality, but it's a set of defined legal limits on the extent to which providers can treat different kinds of traffic differently.
      - daedrdev 6mo ago
        Ok but the main limit people care about is music and video streaming being treated differently
        foldr 6mo ago
        What would be the model of a country with stronger net neutrality laws? I think EU regulations are now a touch stronger than UK regulations due to post-Brexit divergence, but by world standards, the UK has strong net neutrality protections.
      - hamdingers 6mo ago
        Net neutrality is not theoretical, it is literally the default setting. Any deviation from that default requires special effort be taken to identify network traffic and treat it differently, and as soon as you have made that effort you cannot truthfully claim to have net neutrality. The UK does not prohibit net neutrality but it does not require it either (according to the comment I replied to which I have not verified).
        foldr 6mo ago
        I guess to me this seems a bit like saying that free markets are the default setting. We’re not in some kind of perfect state of nature. We’re in a complex interconnected society where virtually everything of any importance is regulated to some extent. What you’re saying seems like saying “as soon as you impose one regulation you no longer have a free market”.
        hamdingers 6mo ago
  - pjc50 6mo ago
    The important issue of net neutrality is not so much zero rating as degradation or blocking of content and services. The OSA has forced the reverse: sites have to be non neutral as to where their traffic is going.

morkalork 6mo ago

This is... Shockingly reasonable. Would be perfect if it included other essential services e.g. domains used for online banking.

TingPing 6mo ago
It’s technically problematic. The ISP should have little idea of domains you visit. And they can’t already when everything works.
- _bernd 6mo ago
  Do you have heared of IP addresses and that large institutions especially government institutions have their own blocks from the address space? Mapping these is kind of easy.
  - inemesitaffia 6mo ago
    They are likely behind (foreign) CDN's. Not that there's no BYOIP and not that it's impossible to do with shared IP's
- pjc50 6mo ago
  Plenty of ISPs zero rate things like Facebook and other "partners". Especially easy when they control the DNS.

Markoff 6mo ago

meanwhile Czechia literally BANNED free Wi-Fi in restaurants and other establishments during COVID, so people will spend there less time, I understood the rationale if people already didn't have mobile data in phones anyway other things Czech gov banned during COVID-19 was singing in public places, no kidding! And I'm not even going to complain they banned sale of the toys, colored pencils and other items so people will spend less time in the shop, so me and kids could just look at the colored pencils behind the tape because we had to go to shop anyway.

lucasban 6mo ago
During COVID in Singapore, music in restaurants was banned, as people may talk more loudly to compensate.
petre 6mo ago
> other things Czech gov banned during COVID-19 was singing in public places, no kidding! So, wait, no Christmas carolling? Was this the doing of Babis? Then only the drunk shall sing in public places, mainly because they're too drunk to care.
- Markoff 6mo ago
  "Church services are limited to a maximum of 100 people, and singing is prohibited; the same applies to public participation in municipal and regional government meetings." "In other regions, the operation of schools and educational facilities is being restricted in accordance with the Education Act, and that of universities in accordance with the Higher Education Act, such that singing is not part of the curriculum; furthermore, with the exception of the first stage of primary education in elementary schools, sports activities will also be temporarily excluded from the curriculum." https://vlada.gov.cz/cz/media-centrum/aktualne/vlada-vyhlasila-na-uzemi-ceske-republiky-od-pondeli-nouzovy-stav-na-30-dnu--do-18--rijna-omezila-hromadne-akce-183879/ https://vlada.gov.cz/cz/media-centrum/aktualne/vlada-vyhlasi...

ksec 6mo ago

Are you part of HMG or was it at telco level ?

edent 6mo ago
I was part of HMG. It was a joint effort with the telcos - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mobile-networks-remove-data-charges-for-online-nhs-coronavirus-advice https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mobile-networks-remove-da...
- ksec 6mo ago
  Oh nice. I am surprised how many HMG colleagues I bump into on HN :)