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Great at gaming? US air traffic control wants you to apply
- londons_explore 7mo ago[flagged]
- cromka 7mo ago> Why would we be hiring new human air controllers now? I suppose because it's not fully automated?
- yrds96 7mo agoWhich tools do we have capable of automating it? LLMs? Not a good idea to put a machine that hallucinate 10% of the time in charge of human lives
- coppsilgold 7mo agoIf you were to design an entire ATC system from scratch (pilot interfaces, sensors everywhere in the airport and planes etc) it can be automated. But with pilots having to actually talk to ATC (and sometimes talk over each other with no feedback) instead of observing their status on a screen and pressing buttons on what they want to do or change their status it seems like it will be quite hopeless for quite some time. What you can probably do is create software which observes traffic and simulates it into the future and notifies the human ATCs about risks. It might even be a good idea to try and digitize it for the ATCs so they talk less and press buttons more (which will feed into the simulation) and use TTS for the legacy transmissions to pilots that don't have an updated interface. Given the regulation on that industry it seems unlikely anyone competent enough to do it will have an interest to even try.
- grumbelbart 7mo ago> If you were to design an entire ATC system from scratch (pilot interfaces, sensors everywhere in the airport and planes etc) it can be automated. Even then you'll probably run into the long-tail distribution issues, similar to self-driving cars. 99.9% of all situations are pretty standard, but once in a while something so abstruse happens that it's not pre-programmed and requires some creativity to solve. > What you can probably do is create software which observes traffic and simulates it into the future and notifies the human ATCs about risks. Fully agree. Some of the recent close calls really were "obvious" much earlier, meaning they were not caused by late course changes.
- kashunstva 7mo ago> hallucinate 10% of the time in charge of human lives Out of curiosity, about a year ago I queried a few models about how to fly a particular instrument approach. It was an ILS approach using a DME arc transition. Other the basic concept of lateral and vertical guidance, most of the models got literally everything wrong. Wrong headings, wrong NAVAID frequencies. Wrong procedures. Maybe they’re better now in this domain, but they were confident in their claims of the ability to read an approach plate. But it was terrible.
- direwolf20 7mo agoHave we just forgotten that there is more to computing than LLMs? Most big planes can land themselves now - in calm weather, at least. It's done regularly when fog is worse than a certain point, because the necessary radio signals pass through the fog. Both the airport and the plane need certain equipment. The same navigation equipment is used on many manual approaches, but with a human in the loop.
- dmitrygr 7mo ago> Fully automated and human free air traffic control would save lives. I now know 100% that you are not a pilot. No thanks! 100% no thanks.
- rl3 7mo agoOnly if it was Microsoft and entirely LLM-powered, because I trust their engineering: Clippy: "Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff runway two-seven." Cessna 123: "Cleared for takeoff runway two-seven, Cessna 123." [seconds later] Clippy: "Piper 456, cleared for landing runway niner. Where do you want to go today?"
- henry2023 7mo agoWe don’t even have fully automated driving cars despide a decade of heavy investment to this problem any random human can do at 16 years old. I’d image air control for a whole airport is even more complex than that, you can take any conclusion you’d like.
- direwolf20 7mo agoIt's not - it's much simpler. Drivers move in a 2D plane densely populated with cars and things that are not cars. Planes sparsely populate the sky by themselves. (There are birds too, but not that high up, and they're largely unavoidable in real-time anyway) There's already semi-automated collision avoidance. If two planes are on a collision course, TCAS tells one plane to climb and another to descend. This works because outside of tightly managed scenarios like a holding stack, and planes shouldn't be anywhere near each other horizontally. There are no other planes above or below you (or anywhere nearby) and by fixing the directions as up and down, TCAS doesn't even have to calculate compass bearings that would work for avoidance.
- cmcaleer 7mo agoI'm sure an automated system would do great in 95% of conditions but it's that 5% where you really, really need a human in the loop to make judgement calls that would be incredibly difficult to program. Here's a classic example of a controller noticing a pilot is hypoxic, indirectly testing his competency and ability, and likely being careful with how he routed traffic around the unreliable pilot until he got better. This alone seems pretty hard to imagine automated with current technology without some overkill prone-to-failure solution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVpfOvVgHtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVpfOvVgHtY
- falcor84 7mo agoSorry for being that person, but wouldn't situations like this be better resolved by replacing the pilot with full automation too? I mean, I've seen quite a few cases where inordinate amounts of effort are expended to create automation to fit the needs of humans and legacy human-oriented interfaces, whereas redesigning the entire flow for the capabilities of modern tech can be significantly cheaper and more reliable. I'm sure that there are a million various complications in this area that I have no idea of, but still would hope that the people in charge are looking to redesign the whole thing rather than just each piece individually.
- HelloUsername 7mo agoSource: https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/trumps-transportation-secretary-sean-p-duffy-and-federal-aviation-administration-unveil https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/trumps-transportation-secretary... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MczWfLpBcw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MczWfLpBcw
- flibbityflob 7mo agoHave they tried paying them consistently?
- szundi 7mo ago[dead]
- falcor84 7mo agoI would be very much in favor of an amendment that says that whenever there's a single person in a public role that isn't being paid in a given month, then no other public employee above them in the chain, going up to the governor/president will be paid that month either.
- direwolf20 7mo agoThat won't work since they'll still receive their bribes. Except for the ones who don't take bribes - they'll be punished for not taking bribes. Be careful what incentives you set up. Now, if the rule was for them to have their bank accounts drained to zero (offshore bank accounts though)... Actually what might work is locking them inside the government building until people are getting paid again. Some countries have rules like that in some scenarios. Another one that might work is dissolving the government and calling an election. Many countries have that. If the governance structure can't pass a budget, operations continue according to the old budget while the entire governance structure gets fired and replaced.
- phoe-krk 7mo agoPlease correct me I'm wrong: > The ad also highlights the salary on offer to controllers, saying it is $155,000 (£115,000) after three years of work. Unless the US government shuts down again, at which point you stop being paid, you are required to keep working, you have no right to strike[0], and the competences you've built across this job are largely hard to directly make use of elsewhere so the incentive to job-hop is low. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr...
- spwa4 7mo agoNo right to strike? So then we go back to playing high school games. Report in sick. Use one of the many tricks to actually be sick.
- probably_wrong 7mo agoI think people here may enjoy John Oliver's report on how bad the situation for air traffic controllers currently is. Jump to minute 18 for a discussion on floppy disks or, appropriately, to minute 25 for an "honest recruitment ad". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YeABJbvcJ_k&t=1539 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YeABJbvcJ_k&t=1539
- Jamesbeam 7mo agoReminds me a lot of his report on nuclear security. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g A lot of times as a citizen I think you feel that something is "off" with different Government jobs but can’t put what exactly. And then you watch one of those reports and be like "holy duck, how can it be this bad and what are they doing to my people and with my taxes?" Different country, but a lot of times when dealing with the government I think why are the people working there always grumpy, and then one gave me the "tour" of what they have to deal with that is hidden from the public eye. Working toilets? Nah, they had to go outside around the building into Porta Potty’s. He showed me like fifty places in the building with mold. Not the fun white one you get on cheese. I am talking about black fungus out of stranger things eating half the wall. Some offices had signs saying working in a different office today with the date printed to 1998. Inside water was dripping from the ceiling. He is like that’s why we are grumpy. Ever since I bring a piece of cake and some hot coffee when I have to deal with government employees and thank them for their service. They are allowed to be grumpy working under conditions I would expect from a third world country.
- altairprime 7mo agoWhat video game on Steam allows me to practice air traffic control? How can I determine if I have a skill at the logistics of managing planes on a radar screen? Where can I join a multiplayer lobby where at game start we're assigned to either give radio commands to planes, or interpret radio commands and respond on behalf of planes, with at least two players for each? How does anti-griefing work in that environment? If that game existed, I would try it. Does it?
- HauntingPin 7mo agoHonestly, it feels like RTS players might qualify considering how much multitasking is required in a game like Starcraft. Maybe they should add a StarCraft 2 competitive rank qualification.
- saithound 7mo agoMS Flight Simulator w/ VATSIM [1] l has this, in the sense thar you can participate as a pilot or a controller, although you are not assigned these roles at game start. Anti-griefing works by keeping the barriers to entry very high, so chances are you won't try VATSIM, even though MSFS is technically available on Steam. [1] https://vatsim.net/docs/basics/becoming-a-controller https://vatsim.net/docs/basics/becoming-a-controller
- CaliforniaKarl 7mo agoIt does, and it's called VATSIM[0]. VATSIM Radar[3] will show you what's going on right now. As a pilot, you connect using either Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane. Your flight simulator will include graphics (hopefully up-to-date) for your chosen area. Pick a starting airport, spawn at a ramp location (a gate, cargo area, etc.), connect to the network, file a flight plan (or go VFR), call up (or announce intentions), and go. As a controller, VATSIM organizes ATC by region of the world, then in to 6-8 divisions within the region, then in to individual ARTCCs, ACCs, or FIRs[2]. You'll typically register with a division, then make your home in a particular ARTCC/FIR. For example, I was registered with VATUSA and made my home in the Indianapolis ARTCC. There is software[1] for both pilots (connecting your flight sim to the network) and controllers (providing a radar display). Each "radio frequency" has an associated text chat and voice chat for communication. ATC are trained to support both text and voice simultaneously, following pilot's preference. For controllers, your chosen ARTCC/ACC/FIR handles your training. They provide the "sectorfiles" that give you a graphical view of your airspace and your airports. (Think of it like a modern version of an old-style vector display.) They also help you through training, both book learning and sim training. You start controlling things on the ground, and work your way up to controlling things in the air. [0]: https://vatsim.net/ https://vatsim.net/ [1]: https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software https://vatsim.net/docs/policy/approved-software [2]: Air Route Traffic Information Center / Area Control Center / Flight Information Region. Different countries use different terms, but mean the same thing: It's a large three-dimensional volume of airspace. [3]: https://vatsim-radar.com/ https://vatsim-radar.com/
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- giorgioz 7mo agoAfter Theme Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Park_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Park_(video_game) and Theme Hospital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Hospital https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Hospital videogames now it's the turn of: THEME TRAFFIC CONTROLLER
- cyanydeez 7mo agogreat at a skill but dont need money, ve disrespexted by politicians as pawns
- altmanaltman 7mo ago> The Xbox one logo appears at the start of the video before dissolving into a montage that cuts between images of men playing various online computer games and people, including women, in air traffic control towers looking at their own computers. > "You've been training for this," the ad says. Wow looks like Microsoft were not kidding with their 'this is also an xbox' ad campaign. Also really console gamers is who you target for this role? USG is becoming a joke
- latexr 7mo agoIf you’re considering it, you should probably watch Last Week Tonight’s investigation first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeABJbvcJ_k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeABJbvcJ_k
- red_admiral 7mo agoI know this is culture-war stuff, but on the balance I think it's true that the FAA deprioritised applicants from the AT/CTI programmes, that is training courses speficically to become ATCs. My main source is https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa..., and I'm assuming in particular that the screenshot of the letter in footnote 1 is genuine. In the section ended by footnote 16, there is a claim than in 2014 the FAA sent out just short of 3k job offer letters whereas in 2019 that had dropped to below 1k. That sounds like cutting off your own recruitment pipeline. It's also evidence that the FAA did not drop the standards for qualification and certification, which is reassuring.
- vinni2 7mo agoWhere is the mighty AI when you need one.
- charcircuit 7mo agoAI should be able to handle the bulk of this work. "14,663 active controllers" is too much when you could have a single gamer + AI combo running it for multiple airports.
- general1465 7mo ago[flagged]
- MrMember 7mo agoTen years ago the FAA was disqualifying candidates because the didn't say their worst subject in high school was science and today they're struggling with recruitment. Seems like a catastrophe of their own making. https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/ https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/
- gus_massa 6mo ago> The ad also highlights the salary on offer to controllers, saying it is $155,000 (£115,000) after three years of work. IIRC they are understaffed and must do like 60hs per week, so it's like $103K in a sane work position.