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This article makes the case for paraxanthine supplements; 80% of caffeine is metabolized into paraxanthine anyway, and it turns out paraxanthine behaves a bit m

This article makes the case for paraxanthine supplements; 80% of caffeine is metabolized into paraxanthine anyway, and it turns out paraxanthine behaves a bit more like we (apparently wrongly) assume caffeine works. But the real question is: does it taste as good as espresso?

ortusdux 7mo ago
I'd imagine it would not be hard to breed/engineer a coffee plant that produces more paraxanthine than caffeine. The plants take 5 years to mature so getting a crop to market would take a while though.
nlitened 7mo ago
> does it taste as good as espresso? Coffee is an acquired taste, I think. People conditions themselves to like the bitter taste of coffee over time. I remember hating the taste of coffee (or beer, for example) in childhood.
- bensyverson 7mo ago
  It's definitely an acquired taste. But an espresso doesn't have to be overwhelmingly bitter! It can be almost sweet if it's extracted well.
  - lamasery 7mo ago
    Regular coffee, too, can be very delicate, minimally bitter, giving herbal or strong tea-like notes, among other things. I've not gotten that kind of profile out of anything but fairly-expensive beans roasted within the last couple of weeks, though. I've never seen it out of even mid-priced beans, nor anything nationally distributed. It's practically a totally different drink from what you get if you ask for a coffee in most contexts. Iced coffee and cold brew are also fairly different. I find middling beans can make a much milder and more pleasant cold brew coffee than hot. Tiny (like, a teaspoon) splash of cream or milk and it takes the bitter edge all but completely off, to my taste anyway.
    - bensyverson 7mo ago
      > I've not gotten that kind of profile out of anything but fairly-expensive beans roasted within the last couple of weeks, though. Good beans will last more than 2 weeks, but yes—just as you wouldn't judge all sushi based on gas station sushi, we shouldn't judge coffee based on months-old pre-ground grocery store roasts.
      - DougMerritt 7mo ago
        > we shouldn't judge coffee based on months-old pre-ground grocery store roasts. Next you'll be claiming that we shouldn't judge sushi based on months-old grocery store sushi.
- Xcelerate 7mo ago
  I’ve heard that bitterness affects children more intensely. So I wonder how much of it is an acquired taste vs bitterness just becoming “milder” over time.
  - yonaguska 7mo ago
    My three year old loves the taste of matcha. Even when I don't prepare it quite right and it turns out very bitter. He's pretty picky about near everything else. I think it's acquisition through mimicry.
    - altairprime 7mo ago
      Matcha is one of the more concentrated amino acids drinks you can make; given how hungry I remember being as a kid, I bet it tastes like liquid gold. And if you’re in a climate that tolerates rhododendrons you can plant a camellia sinensis bush for it straight from the vine as a bridge from matcha to steeped tea, steaming and roasting, etc.
      - dpark 7mo ago
        > Matcha is one of the more concentrated amino acids drinks Matcha is virtually entirely water. Multiple sources say that matcha has about 270 mg of amino acids per serving. Even if matcha powder were 100% amino acids (which would taste vile), a 2g serving would still be 2g. Milk has about 4.5 grams of amino acid content per 100g (less than half a cup).
        altairprime 7mo ago
        Yes, that’s one of the reasons dairy matcha lattes taste so good: not only is it more densely amino, but it’s also more broadly amino (e.g. milk is not particularly high in L-theanine), and the sweetness of the milk offsets the bitterness of the matcha, which lets you ramp up the density further beyond 2g if you like.
        7mo ago
- nightski 7mo ago
  That is entirely dependent on your diet as a child. I know children that love bitter or sour/fermented foods. Not to mention they dislike things that are overly sweet. I wouldn't be surprised if all tastes are essentially "acquired".
- anarazel 7mo ago
  Weirdly enough, I loved coffee from the first time I tried it, at maybe 13. Even though, looking back, it must have been terrible coffee, it was at something vaguely model UN like thing our entire class went to in an overnight trip. Obviously not enough sleep was had. A vending machine (in the late 90s) provided coffee...
  - xnorswap 7mo ago
    > it must have been terrible coffee Douglas Adams nailed the quality of tea from a vending machine, "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea", and that era of coffee machines weren't much better at coffee.
  - _glass 7mo ago
    Yes, I also tried coffee first time when in England when 13, and it was like a revelation. I understand that beer and cigarettes are an acquired taste, they tasted terrible, but coffee was a love at first sip.
- altairprime 7mo ago
  I now like bitters and soda, and I didn’t like bitter as a kid, so I think there might also be shifts in favor of bitter unrelated to coffee. Perhaps the same thing that leads people to appreciate spicy or sour as experiences broaden.
  - DougMerritt 7mo ago
    Years ago, somewhere I read that children have a genetically-based urge to avoid bitter flavors, since they may signal natural poisons, whereas adults can judge better, so the urge is lessened. (And even if that source were true, that wouldn't make the genetic effect an absolute; it would depend on individual genetics and the variable expression of those genes. And probably on the individual's experience, either as a child or as an adult.)
- em-bee 7mo ago
  but why? i have to add so much milk and sugar to mask the bitterness that, combined with the negative effects, i asked myself, why do i even bother? i might as well just drink hot milk with sugar instead. now i only drink coffee if i need the energy and waking effects and nothing else sugary is available, which happens once a year, at most.
  - integralid 7mo ago
    This is not universal. I only drink espresso without sugar or milk, because I love the taste of a strong coffee.
- coldtea 7mo ago
  >Coffee is an acquired taste, I think Billions all over the world managed to acquire it just fine. If that's an acquired taste, I doubt 99% of drinks that aren't an acquired taste would do much better, assuming there's anything doing better than coffee to begin with. Not even Cola and tea come close.
- sfink 7mo ago
  Speak for yourself. The bitter taste is what I like. When I don't like a cup of coffee, it's always going to be for being too sour. (Which can be masked pretty well with milk or a substitute, mind.) I agree with your main point, though. I hated coffee most of my life. Even the smell made me feel ill. At some point, I flipped. I've always liked tea, fwiw. I guess I don't hate beer as much as I used to. Still don't like it, though. Maybe another few decades?
Sharlin 7mo ago
I can understand espresso being drunk for many reasons, but none of them are "tasting good".
- bensyverson 7mo ago
  I actually envy you, because having my first truly good espresso was an experience I wish I could relive
- 0xbadcafebee 7mo ago
  Cafes that care about their coffee can have very good tasting espresso, but cafes that don't care will produce burnt bitter water. There's also Cafecito, which is basically liquid crack.
  - jjk166 7mo ago
    > There's also Cafecito, which is basically liquid crack. Is that a warning or an endorsement?
    - 0xbadcafebee 7mo ago
      Both!
m463 7mo ago
I accustomed myself to drinking coffee black. Then decaf. And later I tried camomile tea. I found the need I really needed satisfied was a warm cup of something to curl my hands around in the morning, and they all worked after I let them. ymmv.
hk__2 7mo ago
> But the real question is: does it taste as good as espresso? I don’t know where you live, but in Italy it’s extremely difficult to find a good espresso; you must go in "specialty coffee" places to taste real coffee, as all the bars use cheap coffee that tastes burnt. Ironically, it’s a country that takes pride in its coffee "tradition" but doesn’t know what coffee tastes like. The experience is the same in France, without the "tradition" thing.

ortusdux 7mo ago

I'd imagine it would not be hard to breed/engineer a coffee plant that produces more paraxanthine than caffeine. The plants take 5 years to mature so getting a crop to market would take a while though.

nlitened 7mo ago

> does it taste as good as espresso? Coffee is an acquired taste, I think. People conditions themselves to like the bitter taste of coffee over time. I remember hating the taste of coffee (or beer, for example) in childhood.

bensyverson 7mo ago
It's definitely an acquired taste. But an espresso doesn't have to be overwhelmingly bitter! It can be almost sweet if it's extracted well.
- lamasery 7mo ago
  Regular coffee, too, can be very delicate, minimally bitter, giving herbal or strong tea-like notes, among other things. I've not gotten that kind of profile out of anything but fairly-expensive beans roasted within the last couple of weeks, though. I've never seen it out of even mid-priced beans, nor anything nationally distributed. It's practically a totally different drink from what you get if you ask for a coffee in most contexts. Iced coffee and cold brew are also fairly different. I find middling beans can make a much milder and more pleasant cold brew coffee than hot. Tiny (like, a teaspoon) splash of cream or milk and it takes the bitter edge all but completely off, to my taste anyway.
  - bensyverson 7mo ago
    > I've not gotten that kind of profile out of anything but fairly-expensive beans roasted within the last couple of weeks, though. Good beans will last more than 2 weeks, but yes—just as you wouldn't judge all sushi based on gas station sushi, we shouldn't judge coffee based on months-old pre-ground grocery store roasts.
    - DougMerritt 7mo ago
      > we shouldn't judge coffee based on months-old pre-ground grocery store roasts. Next you'll be claiming that we shouldn't judge sushi based on months-old grocery store sushi.
Xcelerate 7mo ago
I’ve heard that bitterness affects children more intensely. So I wonder how much of it is an acquired taste vs bitterness just becoming “milder” over time.
- yonaguska 7mo ago
  My three year old loves the taste of matcha. Even when I don't prepare it quite right and it turns out very bitter. He's pretty picky about near everything else. I think it's acquisition through mimicry.
  - altairprime 7mo ago
    Matcha is one of the more concentrated amino acids drinks you can make; given how hungry I remember being as a kid, I bet it tastes like liquid gold. And if you’re in a climate that tolerates rhododendrons you can plant a camellia sinensis bush for it straight from the vine as a bridge from matcha to steeped tea, steaming and roasting, etc.
    - dpark 7mo ago
      > Matcha is one of the more concentrated amino acids drinks Matcha is virtually entirely water. Multiple sources say that matcha has about 270 mg of amino acids per serving. Even if matcha powder were 100% amino acids (which would taste vile), a 2g serving would still be 2g. Milk has about 4.5 grams of amino acid content per 100g (less than half a cup).
      - altairprime 7mo ago
        Yes, that’s one of the reasons dairy matcha lattes taste so good: not only is it more densely amino, but it’s also more broadly amino (e.g. milk is not particularly high in L-theanine), and the sweetness of the milk offsets the bitterness of the matcha, which lets you ramp up the density further beyond 2g if you like.
        7mo ago
nightski 7mo ago
That is entirely dependent on your diet as a child. I know children that love bitter or sour/fermented foods. Not to mention they dislike things that are overly sweet. I wouldn't be surprised if all tastes are essentially "acquired".
anarazel 7mo ago
Weirdly enough, I loved coffee from the first time I tried it, at maybe 13. Even though, looking back, it must have been terrible coffee, it was at something vaguely model UN like thing our entire class went to in an overnight trip. Obviously not enough sleep was had. A vending machine (in the late 90s) provided coffee...
- xnorswap 7mo ago
  > it must have been terrible coffee Douglas Adams nailed the quality of tea from a vending machine, "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea", and that era of coffee machines weren't much better at coffee.
- _glass 7mo ago
  Yes, I also tried coffee first time when in England when 13, and it was like a revelation. I understand that beer and cigarettes are an acquired taste, they tasted terrible, but coffee was a love at first sip.
altairprime 7mo ago
I now like bitters and soda, and I didn’t like bitter as a kid, so I think there might also be shifts in favor of bitter unrelated to coffee. Perhaps the same thing that leads people to appreciate spicy or sour as experiences broaden.
- DougMerritt 7mo ago
  Years ago, somewhere I read that children have a genetically-based urge to avoid bitter flavors, since they may signal natural poisons, whereas adults can judge better, so the urge is lessened. (And even if that source were true, that wouldn't make the genetic effect an absolute; it would depend on individual genetics and the variable expression of those genes. And probably on the individual's experience, either as a child or as an adult.)
em-bee 7mo ago
but why? i have to add so much milk and sugar to mask the bitterness that, combined with the negative effects, i asked myself, why do i even bother? i might as well just drink hot milk with sugar instead. now i only drink coffee if i need the energy and waking effects and nothing else sugary is available, which happens once a year, at most.
- integralid 7mo ago
  This is not universal. I only drink espresso without sugar or milk, because I love the taste of a strong coffee.
coldtea 7mo ago
>Coffee is an acquired taste, I think Billions all over the world managed to acquire it just fine. If that's an acquired taste, I doubt 99% of drinks that aren't an acquired taste would do much better, assuming there's anything doing better than coffee to begin with. Not even Cola and tea come close.
sfink 7mo ago
Speak for yourself. The bitter taste is what I like. When I don't like a cup of coffee, it's always going to be for being too sour. (Which can be masked pretty well with milk or a substitute, mind.) I agree with your main point, though. I hated coffee most of my life. Even the smell made me feel ill. At some point, I flipped. I've always liked tea, fwiw. I guess I don't hate beer as much as I used to. Still don't like it, though. Maybe another few decades?

Sharlin 7mo ago

I can understand espresso being drunk for many reasons, but none of them are "tasting good".

bensyverson 7mo ago
I actually envy you, because having my first truly good espresso was an experience I wish I could relive
0xbadcafebee 7mo ago
Cafes that care about their coffee can have very good tasting espresso, but cafes that don't care will produce burnt bitter water. There's also Cafecito, which is basically liquid crack.
- jjk166 7mo ago
  > There's also Cafecito, which is basically liquid crack. Is that a warning or an endorsement?
  - 0xbadcafebee 7mo ago
    Both!

m463 7mo ago

I accustomed myself to drinking coffee black. Then decaf. And later I tried camomile tea. I found the need I really needed satisfied was a warm cup of something to curl my hands around in the morning, and they all worked after I let them. ymmv.

hk__2 7mo ago

> But the real question is: does it taste as good as espresso? I don’t know where you live, but in Italy it’s extremely difficult to find a good espresso; you must go in "specialty coffee" places to taste real coffee, as all the bars use cheap coffee that tastes burnt. Ironically, it’s a country that takes pride in its coffee "tradition" but doesn’t know what coffee tastes like. The experience is the same in France, without the "tradition" thing.