4 ms·

It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislat

by culi 7mo ago

It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislation is the creation of the Maine Data Center Coordination Council. Alongside it is a temporary (until Nov 2027) moratorium on data centers over 20 megawatts. This seems to be in place so they could establish a proper legal and environmental framework for building out data centers in the future. This is exactly the kind of approach to legislation we should all hope our local representatives are competent enough to do.

pj_mukh 7mo ago
Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.
- culi 7mo ago
  Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting. This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism > As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requirements and processes for proposed datacenters.” https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-ld-307/ https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-l... I think you're much more likely to see actual populist NIMBYism if this bill was not passed
  - JuniperMesos 7mo ago
    > Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? Yes
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
    - culi 7mo ago
      What about the Department of Energy or Department of Education or Department of Commerce? Why not just do away with government in general. Let corporations do what they want
      - JuniperMesos 7mo ago
        Yeah I think in a lot of cases getting rid of a government bureaucracy and replacing it with nothing would result in better outcomes for more people than continuing to let the government bureaucracy continue to exist and work counterproductively against good market outcomes because those good market outcomes impact a special interest group that's been able to gain poltical control of that bureaucracy. This is exactly what has happened with the Department of Education and it's a good reason why the Department of Education should be abolished (I'd go even further and abolish local public schools, privatizing all K-12 education)
  - pj_mukh 7mo ago
    The EPA comparison is moot. Data centers don’t dump chemicals into the water or emit toxic gasses. A data center is not more or less resource intensive than your typical factory. All already regulated. What you’re asking for is an EPA for “do I approve of what this data center is used for?”. Which is insane.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7mo ago
  The textbook definition of NIMBYism is as an acronym for "Not In My Backyard" aka "saying no to changes adjacent or close to me". This is completely different than what you're describing (even if the end results are sometimes the same).
- throwaway-11-1 7mo ago
  Do Yimby’s actually believe in democracy or that markets should basically make every decision? Honestly starting to get a little suspicious.
  - pj_mukh 7mo ago
    If the whole voting population came together and said we’d like to pay ourselves $100,000 in straight cash today by borrowing it from future generations. Should they be able to do it in the name of direct democracy? Blocking all future growth due to aesthetic reasons is 10x worse, atleast the $100,000 could be meaningfully spent now.
    - thinkloop 7mo ago
      Who decides things if not the entire voting population? There's nothing inherently wrong with your suggestion, if it's what everyone wants. We've been doing it for a century, see the national debt. But people like their kids, so we restrain it. People don't want a society full of desperation, so we restrain it. People want a strong nation, so we restrain it. It's not a crazy hypothetical, it's how the system works. Humans just aren't basic consumption machines.
      - guzfip 7mo ago
        Forget “democracy”. These stupid poor geezers need strong technocrats to guide them past their own ignorance.
    - TitaRusell 7mo ago
      Yeah I'm not buying it. Look I live in a leafy affluent area and there's just no way in hell a data center would ever be built here. There will be lawyers. Maine is poor.
    - culi 7mo ago
      This is the exact opposite of that though. This is people coming together and saying "lets put a temporary pause on new infrastructure until the research/science catches up so we make sure we don't screw things up for future generations". It's people prioritizing long term stable and healthy growth over short term profits and hype cycles
kevin_thibedeau 7mo ago
Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner? The negative backlash is way out of proportion to the actual harm of a light industrial activity with minimal pollution. Put in requirements for responsible caps on electricity usage and ban "temporary" generators so they don't get a backdoor public subsidy on their power consumption. The market will sort the rest out.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 7mo ago
  > Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner It may not be worse, but it is more likely. There just aren't trillions of dollars being poured into new smelters across the country. If there were, then I imagine laws being enacted about them to.
- Blackthorn 7mo ago
  You've gotta read the room. People hate AI.
- seizethegdgap 7mo ago
  Per local job created? As bad as they are for the environment, local folks are working there, stimulating the local economy for a much longer period than specialists flying in, spinning up a DC, then leaving for the next one.
- culi 7mo ago
  I don't know if they're "worse" but both iron smelters and aluminum refiners are heavily regulated. It only seems logical to treat data centers the same
- mrguyorama 7mo ago
  Data centers do not produce many jobs, and in return it will put more demand on our power grid which is one of the most expensive in the nation. Instead of building new large power consumers, we should be forcing CMP to connect up the tens of solar projects looking to contribute to our grid. It's not like we actually hurt for a "Tech" industry. Southern Maine has a lot more "tech: jobs than you would expect for being an old as hell and poor state.
tts626 7mo ago
Smaller data centers which are widely distributed across the country is a better idea both for jobs and grid resilience. Need that for new power plants too: more, smaller, local. But I think hoping "local representatives are competent enough" is wishful thinking.
- culi 7mo ago
  The council is commissioning studies and hiring experts. Its not like the politicians themselves need any relevant expertise. They just need to be competent at writing good legislation, structuring such institutions, and knowing how to listen to the experts they hired

by culi 7mo ago

pj_mukh 7mo ago

Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.

culi 7mo ago
Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting. This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism > As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requirements and processes for proposed datacenters.” https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-ld-307/ https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-l... I think you're much more likely to see actual populist NIMBYism if this bill was not passed
- JuniperMesos 7mo ago
  > Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? Yes
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - culi 7mo ago
    What about the Department of Energy or Department of Education or Department of Commerce? Why not just do away with government in general. Let corporations do what they want
    - JuniperMesos 7mo ago
      Yeah I think in a lot of cases getting rid of a government bureaucracy and replacing it with nothing would result in better outcomes for more people than continuing to let the government bureaucracy continue to exist and work counterproductively against good market outcomes because those good market outcomes impact a special interest group that's been able to gain poltical control of that bureaucracy. This is exactly what has happened with the Department of Education and it's a good reason why the Department of Education should be abolished (I'd go even further and abolish local public schools, privatizing all K-12 education)
- pj_mukh 7mo ago
  The EPA comparison is moot. Data centers don’t dump chemicals into the water or emit toxic gasses. A data center is not more or less resource intensive than your typical factory. All already regulated. What you’re asking for is an EPA for “do I approve of what this data center is used for?”. Which is insane.
PaulDavisThe1st 7mo ago
The textbook definition of NIMBYism is as an acronym for "Not In My Backyard" aka "saying no to changes adjacent or close to me". This is completely different than what you're describing (even if the end results are sometimes the same).
throwaway-11-1 7mo ago
Do Yimby’s actually believe in democracy or that markets should basically make every decision? Honestly starting to get a little suspicious.
- pj_mukh 7mo ago
  If the whole voting population came together and said we’d like to pay ourselves $100,000 in straight cash today by borrowing it from future generations. Should they be able to do it in the name of direct democracy? Blocking all future growth due to aesthetic reasons is 10x worse, atleast the $100,000 could be meaningfully spent now.
  - thinkloop 7mo ago
    Who decides things if not the entire voting population? There's nothing inherently wrong with your suggestion, if it's what everyone wants. We've been doing it for a century, see the national debt. But people like their kids, so we restrain it. People don't want a society full of desperation, so we restrain it. People want a strong nation, so we restrain it. It's not a crazy hypothetical, it's how the system works. Humans just aren't basic consumption machines.
    - guzfip 7mo ago
      Forget “democracy”. These stupid poor geezers need strong technocrats to guide them past their own ignorance.
  - TitaRusell 7mo ago
    Yeah I'm not buying it. Look I live in a leafy affluent area and there's just no way in hell a data center would ever be built here. There will be lawyers. Maine is poor.
  - culi 7mo ago
    This is the exact opposite of that though. This is people coming together and saying "lets put a temporary pause on new infrastructure until the research/science catches up so we make sure we don't screw things up for future generations". It's people prioritizing long term stable and healthy growth over short term profits and hype cycles

kevin_thibedeau 7mo ago

Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner? The negative backlash is way out of proportion to the actual harm of a light industrial activity with minimal pollution. Put in requirements for responsible caps on electricity usage and ban "temporary" generators so they don't get a backdoor public subsidy on their power consumption. The market will sort the rest out.

Eddy_Viscosity2 7mo ago
> Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner It may not be worse, but it is more likely. There just aren't trillions of dollars being poured into new smelters across the country. If there were, then I imagine laws being enacted about them to.
Blackthorn 7mo ago
You've gotta read the room. People hate AI.
seizethegdgap 7mo ago
Per local job created? As bad as they are for the environment, local folks are working there, stimulating the local economy for a much longer period than specialists flying in, spinning up a DC, then leaving for the next one.
culi 7mo ago
I don't know if they're "worse" but both iron smelters and aluminum refiners are heavily regulated. It only seems logical to treat data centers the same
mrguyorama 7mo ago
Data centers do not produce many jobs, and in return it will put more demand on our power grid which is one of the most expensive in the nation. Instead of building new large power consumers, we should be forcing CMP to connect up the tens of solar projects looking to contribute to our grid. It's not like we actually hurt for a "Tech" industry. Southern Maine has a lot more "tech: jobs than you would expect for being an old as hell and poor state.

tts626 7mo ago

Smaller data centers which are widely distributed across the country is a better idea both for jobs and grid resilience. Need that for new power plants too: more, smaller, local. But I think hoping "local representatives are competent enough" is wishful thinking.

culi 7mo ago
The council is commissioning studies and hiring experts. Its not like the politicians themselves need any relevant expertise. They just need to be competent at writing good legislation, structuring such institutions, and knowing how to listen to the experts they hired