4 ms·

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type

by pj_mukh 7mo ago

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type of new industrial <anything>. Now do this for housing, new sources of water anything a person younger than 40 would need and you basically get a state full of retirees..and oh would you look at that! [3]. Now the question is, why wouldn't all states eventually do this with the way our population pyramid is looking? It's basically rabid conservation and tragedy of the commons writ large. [1]: https://www.mainepublic.org/politics/2025-04-08/bill-removing-referendum-requirement-for-nuclear-plants-fails-early-test-in-maine-house https://www.mainepublic.org/politics/2025-04-08/bill-removin... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-quebec-hydropower-transmission-line-2021-11-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-q... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

culi 7mo ago
It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislation is the creation of the Maine Data Center Coordination Council. Alongside it is a temporary (until Nov 2027) moratorium on data centers over 20 megawatts. This seems to be in place so they could establish a proper legal and environmental framework for building out data centers in the future. This is exactly the kind of approach to legislation we should all hope our local representatives are competent enough to do.
- pj_mukh 7mo ago
  Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.
  - culi 7mo ago
    Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting. This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism > As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requirements and processes for proposed datacenters.” https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-ld-307/ https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-l... I think you're much more likely to see actual populist NIMBYism if this bill was not passed
    - JuniperMesos 7mo ago
      > Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? Yes
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      - culi 6mo ago
        What about the Department of Energy or Department of Education or Department of Commerce? Why not just do away with government in general. Let corporations do what they want
        JuniperMesos 6mo ago
        Yeah I think in a lot of cases getting rid of a government bureaucracy and replacing it with nothing would result in better outcomes for more people than continuing to let the government bureaucracy continue to exist and work counterproductively against good market outcomes because those good market outcomes impact a special interest group that's been able to gain poltical control of that bureaucracy. This is exactly what has happened with the Department of Education and it's a good reason why the Department of Education should be abolished (I'd go even further and abolish local public schools, privatizing all K-12 education)
    - 6mo ago
- kevin_thibedeau 7mo ago
  Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner? The negative backlash is way out of proportion to the actual harm of a light industrial activity with minimal pollution. Put in requirements for responsible caps on electricity usage and ban "temporary" generators so they don't get a backdoor public subsidy on their power consumption. The market will sort the rest out.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 7mo ago
    > Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner It may not be worse, but it is more likely. There just aren't trillions of dollars being poured into new smelters across the country. If there were, then I imagine laws being enacted about them to.
  - Blackthorn 7mo ago
    You've gotta read the room. People hate AI.
  - seizethegdgap 7mo ago
    Per local job created? As bad as they are for the environment, local folks are working there, stimulating the local economy for a much longer period than specialists flying in, spinning up a DC, then leaving for the next one.
  - culi 7mo ago
    I don't know if they're "worse" but both iron smelters and aluminum refiners are heavily regulated. It only seems logical to treat data centers the same
  - mrguyorama 7mo ago
    Data centers do not produce many jobs, and in return it will put more demand on our power grid which is one of the most expensive in the nation. Instead of building new large power consumers, we should be forcing CMP to connect up the tens of solar projects looking to contribute to our grid. It's not like we actually hurt for a "Tech" industry. Southern Maine has a lot more "tech: jobs than you would expect for being an old as hell and poor state.
- tts626 7mo ago
  Smaller data centers which are widely distributed across the country is a better idea both for jobs and grid resilience. Need that for new power plants too: more, smaller, local. But I think hoping "local representatives are competent enough" is wishful thinking.
  - culi 7mo ago
    The council is commissioning studies and hiring experts. Its not like the politicians themselves need any relevant expertise. They just need to be competent at writing good legislation, structuring such institutions, and knowing how to listen to the experts they hired
nmbrskeptix 7mo ago
[dead]
eudamoniac 7mo ago
Is your argument that we should ignore the will of the people? Because this is what the people of Maine want. Why exactly should Maine be forced to have data centers in it when its citizens don't want that?
- Redoubts 7mo ago
  We have rights and representative republics to restrain the will of the people for a reason.
  - eudamoniac 7mo ago
    The representatives proposed the legislation, and the people want this. This is democracy working as intended regardless of your preferred flavor.
DANmode 7mo ago
> This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Good news: lots of choice.
hammock 7mo ago
Maine is far from being a nimby state, apart from the 30% expansion rule for houses <250ft from water, there is basically no zoning across the entire state and a fly by night hot dog diner could go up next to your million dollar cottage if it wanted to. California on the other hand… but they are clearly far from becoming a “dead state”
insane_dreamer 7mo ago
I don't have a problem with NIMS -- which isn't the same as NIMBY. It's one of the reasons the US is a federation.
yfw 7mo ago
Its race to the bottom not nimby.
TitaRusell 7mo ago
Data centers bring in less jobs than tourism. They don't grow the tax base. All you get is ugly industrial sprawl.
steve-atx-7600 7mo ago
Are TX and AZ really dead retiree states…as an example of states recognized as more business friendly? I work in a heavily-per state-regulated industry. Some states have regulations that increase the cost to do business there, and so we will (1) never have offices there and (2) those states get products last if at all. I also see tons of jobs being created in TX and AZ.
pibaker 7mo ago
> This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. This too is the beauty of federalism. You want to live in a dead retiree state? You can. You want to live in a bustling industrial district? You can too. As long as you do things through proper democratic channels. > Now do this for housing But this bill is not about housing. This response makes as much sense as responding to a new law legalizing marijuana and saying "now do this for heroin, rape and murder."
- pj_mukh 7mo ago
  [flagged]
exe34 7mo ago
build the power source next door and charge them extra.
JR1427 7mo ago
> It's basically rabid conservation and tragedy of the commons writ large How is this like "tragedy of the commons"?
Shitty-kitty 7mo ago
Maine's economy is based on tourism and rich people (which tend to be older) wanting to live (and spend their money) there. You got to consider things carefully about what you do to the states economy with eyeysores like power lines and electricity-generation to feed datacenters.
jmye 7mo ago
Not wanting data centers and not wanting new housing are not the same thing, and conflating them is absurd and intentional dishonesty. Sorry people aren't bending over backwards to help your AI start-up get VC funding, but maybe if y'all were a bit more honest, people wouldn't hate the infrastructure you're desperately trying to install in their backyard. Because it sure as shit isn't going in yours, is it?
skeaker 7mo ago
Surely you understand how a data center is different from housing?
mrguyorama 7mo ago
The transmission line wasn't a power source for Maine. None of the power it carried would be sold to Maine. Meanwhile CMP slow rolls connections to all the new Solar farms starting up trying to help our expensive power situation.

by pj_mukh 7mo ago

culi 7mo ago

It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislation is the creation of the Maine Data Center Coordination Council. Alongside it is a temporary (until Nov 2027) moratorium on data centers over 20 megawatts. This seems to be in place so they could establish a proper legal and environmental framework for building out data centers in the future. This is exactly the kind of approach to legislation we should all hope our local representatives are competent enough to do.

pj_mukh 7mo ago
Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.
- culi 7mo ago
  Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting. This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism > As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requirements and processes for proposed datacenters.” https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-ld-307/ https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-l... I think you're much more likely to see actual populist NIMBYism if this bill was not passed
  - JuniperMesos 7mo ago
    > Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? Yes
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - culi 6mo ago
      What about the Department of Energy or Department of Education or Department of Commerce? Why not just do away with government in general. Let corporations do what they want
      - JuniperMesos 6mo ago
        Yeah I think in a lot of cases getting rid of a government bureaucracy and replacing it with nothing would result in better outcomes for more people than continuing to let the government bureaucracy continue to exist and work counterproductively against good market outcomes because those good market outcomes impact a special interest group that's been able to gain poltical control of that bureaucracy. This is exactly what has happened with the Department of Education and it's a good reason why the Department of Education should be abolished (I'd go even further and abolish local public schools, privatizing all K-12 education)
  - 6mo ago
kevin_thibedeau 7mo ago
Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner? The negative backlash is way out of proportion to the actual harm of a light industrial activity with minimal pollution. Put in requirements for responsible caps on electricity usage and ban "temporary" generators so they don't get a backdoor public subsidy on their power consumption. The market will sort the rest out.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 7mo ago
  > Is a data center worse than an iron smelter or aluminum refiner It may not be worse, but it is more likely. There just aren't trillions of dollars being poured into new smelters across the country. If there were, then I imagine laws being enacted about them to.
- Blackthorn 7mo ago
  You've gotta read the room. People hate AI.
- seizethegdgap 7mo ago
  Per local job created? As bad as they are for the environment, local folks are working there, stimulating the local economy for a much longer period than specialists flying in, spinning up a DC, then leaving for the next one.
- culi 7mo ago
  I don't know if they're "worse" but both iron smelters and aluminum refiners are heavily regulated. It only seems logical to treat data centers the same
- mrguyorama 7mo ago
  Data centers do not produce many jobs, and in return it will put more demand on our power grid which is one of the most expensive in the nation. Instead of building new large power consumers, we should be forcing CMP to connect up the tens of solar projects looking to contribute to our grid. It's not like we actually hurt for a "Tech" industry. Southern Maine has a lot more "tech: jobs than you would expect for being an old as hell and poor state.
tts626 7mo ago
Smaller data centers which are widely distributed across the country is a better idea both for jobs and grid resilience. Need that for new power plants too: more, smaller, local. But I think hoping "local representatives are competent enough" is wishful thinking.
- culi 7mo ago
  The council is commissioning studies and hiring experts. Its not like the politicians themselves need any relevant expertise. They just need to be competent at writing good legislation, structuring such institutions, and knowing how to listen to the experts they hired

nmbrskeptix 7mo ago

[dead]

eudamoniac 7mo ago

Is your argument that we should ignore the will of the people? Because this is what the people of Maine want. Why exactly should Maine be forced to have data centers in it when its citizens don't want that?

Redoubts 7mo ago
We have rights and representative republics to restrain the will of the people for a reason.
- eudamoniac 7mo ago
  The representatives proposed the legislation, and the people want this. This is democracy working as intended regardless of your preferred flavor.

DANmode 7mo ago

> This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Good news: lots of choice.

hammock 7mo ago

Maine is far from being a nimby state, apart from the 30% expansion rule for houses <250ft from water, there is basically no zoning across the entire state and a fly by night hot dog diner could go up next to your million dollar cottage if it wanted to. California on the other hand… but they are clearly far from becoming a “dead state”

insane_dreamer 7mo ago

I don't have a problem with NIMS -- which isn't the same as NIMBY. It's one of the reasons the US is a federation.

yfw 7mo ago

Its race to the bottom not nimby.

TitaRusell 7mo ago

Data centers bring in less jobs than tourism. They don't grow the tax base. All you get is ugly industrial sprawl.

steve-atx-7600 7mo ago

Are TX and AZ really dead retiree states…as an example of states recognized as more business friendly? I work in a heavily-per state-regulated industry. Some states have regulations that increase the cost to do business there, and so we will (1) never have offices there and (2) those states get products last if at all. I also see tons of jobs being created in TX and AZ.

pibaker 7mo ago

> This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. This too is the beauty of federalism. You want to live in a dead retiree state? You can. You want to live in a bustling industrial district? You can too. As long as you do things through proper democratic channels. > Now do this for housing But this bill is not about housing. This response makes as much sense as responding to a new law legalizing marijuana and saying "now do this for heroin, rape and murder."

pj_mukh 7mo ago
[flagged]

exe34 7mo ago

build the power source next door and charge them extra.

JR1427 7mo ago

> It's basically rabid conservation and tragedy of the commons writ large How is this like "tragedy of the commons"?

Shitty-kitty 7mo ago

Maine's economy is based on tourism and rich people (which tend to be older) wanting to live (and spend their money) there. You got to consider things carefully about what you do to the states economy with eyeysores like power lines and electricity-generation to feed datacenters.

jmye 7mo ago

Not wanting data centers and not wanting new housing are not the same thing, and conflating them is absurd and intentional dishonesty. Sorry people aren't bending over backwards to help your AI start-up get VC funding, but maybe if y'all were a bit more honest, people wouldn't hate the infrastructure you're desperately trying to install in their backyard. Because it sure as shit isn't going in yours, is it?

skeaker 7mo ago

Surely you understand how a data center is different from housing?

mrguyorama 7mo ago

The transmission line wasn't a power source for Maine. None of the power it carried would be sold to Maine. Meanwhile CMP slow rolls connections to all the new Solar farms starting up trying to help our expensive power situation.