4 ms·

Libraries are one the most beloved things america really got right. Such a great value and use of tax money.

dylan604 7mo ago
If everyone used the library as much as people say they are great, their shelves would be empty. Libraries have to be some of the most underutilized services.
- dingaling 7mo ago
  Sadly, libraries in UK towns have very little shelf space left and what's on them is usually mass-market fiction, biography or very old non-fiction. Honestly isn't worth the effort to visit my local one, unless I want to join a crochet club or do 'mindfulness' jigsaws.
  - BeetleB 6mo ago
    In the US, libraries are often part of a network, and we have access to all the materials in the network. So if my local library doesn't have it, I simply request it from another library. They ship it to mine and I pick it up (and return to mine). Then we also have a larger inter-library loan, where I can request things from libraries far, far away (even in another state). It takes much longer, though, and if it is deemed a popular/useful item, my local library may decide to purchase it and give that one to me rather than use ILL. You may want to check if your local library has something similar.
- WCSTombs 7mo ago
  In my experience, there can be pretty high contention for certain items, so you need to be on the ball or make use of the "place hold" feature judiciously. Yeah, people are using the service.
- BeetleB 7mo ago
  When it comes to recent popular movies, the wait times can be over 6 months. I'm usually number 480 on the waitlist or something. I wouldn't call that underutilized. :-)
apparent 7mo ago
Some of the services end up being very expensive, like ebook lending. Some publishers basically charge libraries per loan ($X for an ebook that lasts Y loans), so while it is nice for residents it's not clear that it's a good value, or that it's a good use of tax money. I once heard from a knowledgeable source that most of library lending is bodice rippers. These are available from Amazon/etc. pretty cheaply, which undercuts the value argument. And of course, there's practically no social value of providing the public with free bodice rippers... I'd be interested to know more about the economics of lending DVDs and Blu-rays. Hopefully libraries get a better deal on these.
- triceratops 7mo ago
  > And of course, there's practically no social value of providing the public with free bodice rippers... Why not? > Some of the services end up being very expensive, like ebook lending We need something like a first-sale doctrine for electronic media. Blockchains would be ideal for tracking ownership.
  - apparent 7mo ago
    If most of lending were made up of educational texts, there would be a social value. Some people describe bodice rippers as porn for women, and people get addicted to them in the same way they get addicted to porn. Would a library ever lend porn out? I'm guessing no, because of the lack of social value. To the extent that bodice rippers are like porn, the same rationale would apply.
    - IAmBroom 6mo ago
      And to the extent that those are two different things, your argument completely falls apart.
      - apparent 6mo ago
        Nope, because even if bodice rippers are not pure porn, it's not clear why libraries should subsidize entertainment for patrons. I'm not saying it's a terrible use of taxpayer money, just disagreeing with OP who said it's "such a great use of tax money". It does not bring people together, educate them, or provide for the common defense. Why not have movie theaters be government-run? It would make as much sense as providing free smut-adjacent books for (almost entirely) women.
rahimnathwani 7mo ago
In San Francisco, the annual library budget is ~$200,000,000. That's about $10/month for each San Francisco resident (including babies, elderly people etc.).
- triceratops 7mo ago
  Incredible value for money then.
  - rahimnathwani 7mo ago
    It might not seem like a lot, but it is a lot when you consider that most residents don't use the library at all, and that adult book collections aren't great. 850,000 people have to share just 2 copies of Thompson's Calculus Made Easy. (I didn't cherry pick this: I looked up at my bookshelf and picked the first book I saw.) Very little of the money is spent on books. Only 15% of the money is spent on 'collections', and much of that is spent on things other than books. SF libraries are nice for children (lots of copies of kids' books, lots of desks to do homework when waiting for parents to get back from work). But I personally don't find them a convenient source for reading material as, if I want a particular book, they usually don't have it. SFPL's own stats say they see over 10,000 visitors per day and check out over 12 million items annually. Let's say you allocate 50% ($100M) to each of those two missions: serving as a community space vs. lending materials. That gives you: - As a community space: $100M ÷ (10,000 visitors × 365 days) = ~$27 per visit. You could hand every person who walks in a $27 gift card to a coffee shop with free Wi-Fi and they'd arguably get a comparable experience for many use cases. - As a lending library: $100M ÷ 12,000,000 checkouts = ~$8.30 per checkout. You could just buy most paperbacks and many e-books for that price and give them away.
    - triceratops 6mo ago
      I misunderstood and thought it was $10/year. SF clearly has a spending problem. Maybe it's to do with the high cost of living.
    - triceratops 6mo ago

If everyone used the library as much as people say they are great, their shelves would be empty. Libraries have to be some of the most underutilized services.

dingaling 7mo ago
Sadly, libraries in UK towns have very little shelf space left and what's on them is usually mass-market fiction, biography or very old non-fiction. Honestly isn't worth the effort to visit my local one, unless I want to join a crochet club or do 'mindfulness' jigsaws.
- BeetleB 6mo ago
  In the US, libraries are often part of a network, and we have access to all the materials in the network. So if my local library doesn't have it, I simply request it from another library. They ship it to mine and I pick it up (and return to mine). Then we also have a larger inter-library loan, where I can request things from libraries far, far away (even in another state). It takes much longer, though, and if it is deemed a popular/useful item, my local library may decide to purchase it and give that one to me rather than use ILL. You may want to check if your local library has something similar.
WCSTombs 7mo ago
In my experience, there can be pretty high contention for certain items, so you need to be on the ball or make use of the "place hold" feature judiciously. Yeah, people are using the service.
BeetleB 7mo ago
When it comes to recent popular movies, the wait times can be over 6 months. I'm usually number 480 on the waitlist or something. I wouldn't call that underutilized. :-)

apparent 7mo ago

Some of the services end up being very expensive, like ebook lending. Some publishers basically charge libraries per loan ($X for an ebook that lasts Y loans), so while it is nice for residents it's not clear that it's a good value, or that it's a good use of tax money. I once heard from a knowledgeable source that most of library lending is bodice rippers. These are available from Amazon/etc. pretty cheaply, which undercuts the value argument. And of course, there's practically no social value of providing the public with free bodice rippers... I'd be interested to know more about the economics of lending DVDs and Blu-rays. Hopefully libraries get a better deal on these.

triceratops 7mo ago
> And of course, there's practically no social value of providing the public with free bodice rippers... Why not? > Some of the services end up being very expensive, like ebook lending We need something like a first-sale doctrine for electronic media. Blockchains would be ideal for tracking ownership.
- apparent 7mo ago
  If most of lending were made up of educational texts, there would be a social value. Some people describe bodice rippers as porn for women, and people get addicted to them in the same way they get addicted to porn. Would a library ever lend porn out? I'm guessing no, because of the lack of social value. To the extent that bodice rippers are like porn, the same rationale would apply.
  - IAmBroom 6mo ago
    And to the extent that those are two different things, your argument completely falls apart.
    - apparent 6mo ago
      Nope, because even if bodice rippers are not pure porn, it's not clear why libraries should subsidize entertainment for patrons. I'm not saying it's a terrible use of taxpayer money, just disagreeing with OP who said it's "such a great use of tax money". It does not bring people together, educate them, or provide for the common defense. Why not have movie theaters be government-run? It would make as much sense as providing free smut-adjacent books for (almost entirely) women.

rahimnathwani 7mo ago

In San Francisco, the annual library budget is ~$200,000,000. That's about $10/month for each San Francisco resident (including babies, elderly people etc.).

triceratops 7mo ago
Incredible value for money then.
- rahimnathwani 7mo ago
  It might not seem like a lot, but it is a lot when you consider that most residents don't use the library at all, and that adult book collections aren't great. 850,000 people have to share just 2 copies of Thompson's Calculus Made Easy. (I didn't cherry pick this: I looked up at my bookshelf and picked the first book I saw.) Very little of the money is spent on books. Only 15% of the money is spent on 'collections', and much of that is spent on things other than books. SF libraries are nice for children (lots of copies of kids' books, lots of desks to do homework when waiting for parents to get back from work). But I personally don't find them a convenient source for reading material as, if I want a particular book, they usually don't have it. SFPL's own stats say they see over 10,000 visitors per day and check out over 12 million items annually. Let's say you allocate 50% ($100M) to each of those two missions: serving as a community space vs. lending materials. That gives you: - As a community space: $100M ÷ (10,000 visitors × 365 days) = ~$27 per visit. You could hand every person who walks in a $27 gift card to a coffee shop with free Wi-Fi and they'd arguably get a comparable experience for many use cases. - As a lending library: $100M ÷ 12,000,000 checkouts = ~$8.30 per checkout. You could just buy most paperbacks and many e-books for that price and give them away.
  - triceratops 6mo ago
    I misunderstood and thought it was $10/year. SF clearly has a spending problem. Maybe it's to do with the high cost of living.
  - triceratops 6mo ago