6 ms·

You discussed two distinct groups: "certain ideological concerns" and "the kind of stuff we tend to think the EFF primarily cares about". I think you're gettin

by slg 6mo ago

You discussed two distinct groups: "certain ideological concerns" and "the kind of stuff we tend to think the EFF primarily cares about". I think you're getting this type of response because many of us can't see any actual difference between those two groups besides your own politics and assumptions.

Brendinooo 6mo ago
You might be right; I don't know what the broad populace thinks of what EFF does. I'll ask you then: What are the three main areas of advocacy where you think the EFF has been the most visible and/or effective?
- jeffbee 6mo ago
  EFF has basically only succeeded in defending Section 230, which makes me wonder if the people who talk in this article and the people elsewhere on HN denouncing Section 230 know about each other.
  - Terr_ 6mo ago
    There's been a lot of misinformation around section 230 in the last several years. This might be helpful, either as something to give out or to receive, depending. https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act/ https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referre... Granted, it's from 2020, so there may be updated versions by now.
- slg 6mo ago
  I can't definitively give you a top three and honestly don't see any value in ranking them like that. I would simply describe them as the ACLU for technology and the Internet in that they fight for general civil liberties. X and more specifically Elon Musk have shown that they are on the opposite side when it comes to many of those civil liberties even if they all agree on some other issues. Online censorship (both explicit and through algorithmic bias) is the most obvious example that bridges your two distinct groups. Musk might claim he agrees with the EFF on that, but through his and X's actions, it's clear he doesn't.
- smaudet 6mo ago
  It's an association fallacy - Musk may be a radical extremist on the right, and a technology mogul, you may find yourself aligning with some of his world views (not all of them, remember he is an extremist relative to yourself). So when people support EFF's technological goals (freedoms for users on technology platforms), if they are themselves possibly on the right, they project their own values onto the organization or system (which here is the EFF). Never-mind if some of those values are incompatible with the values you think you hold (being authoritarian generally is incompatible with being not being authoritarian about technology). When someone points out the (otherwise obvious) contradiction to you, you're surprised that your set of values is incongruous. Now this can happen to anyone coming from any political starting point, they agree with something but find it doesn't quite fit with their world views. If you are deeply religious about it, you tend to hold on for dear life and either decide to "pick" on set of values over another (suddenly you realize, actually, yes you would like to enslave everyone) or engage in some form of hypocrisy or another (authoritarians are good, but for some reason or the other I'm going to make an exception for technology).
  - Brendinooo 6mo ago
    I dunno. My understanding of coalition building is "we disagree about a bunch of stuff, but we agree on this one thing, so let's work together on it". You seem to be saying: "if you disagree with me on the other stuff, your agreement on this thing is rooted in a contradictory value system you haven't fully examined". Is that correct?
    - smaudet 6mo ago
      Not exactly. Values have a hierarchy. You can't (effectively) agree to painting everything the color blue, if you can't agree what the color blue is. And you will run into a very similar issue when everyone starts objecting to the pink you have spread everywhere, despite supposedly agreeing to the color scheme.
      - dvt 6mo ago
        > Not exactly. But then you go on to describe exactly what @Brendinooo described, just under the guise of your system of "value hierarchy." The problem is that you can always default to "our values are hierarchically misaligned" and then never have to do any coalition building ever. So how do you solve that? Because it seems that you can't.
- genxy 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - zahlman 6mo ago
    Whatever you're trying to imply here, it's a personal attack that does not contribute to the discourse.
    - genxy 6mo ago
      The OP is coyling spraying half baked questions across discussion in an effort to do who knows what. It is an attack on the delivery, not the person.
      - zahlman 6mo ago
        No, nothing of the sort is happening. There is no reason to assume bad faith in those questions. The questions are not "half-baked". I make such dismissals because if I merely expressed doubt, it appears that you would make the same accusations against me. The burden of proof is on you; what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence; etc.
      - Brendinooo 6mo ago
        Just noting that I saw this, but I don't really see a point in replying outside of this comment at this time because I don't feel the need to prove myself to you, and I don't know how I could change what I'm writing to satisfy you personally anyways. Have a nice evening!
zahlman 6mo ago
> I think you're getting this type of response because many of us can't see any actual difference between those two groups besides your own politics and assumptions. I think that is why, yes. I also think the differences are really obvious, and I genuinely can't understand why so many people here can't see that.
- Brendinooo 6mo ago
  This might be the most interesting insight I gained by commenting here today. I expected people to be on board with it; I didn't expect people to be so acclimated to it that they don't even see how others might notice it.
  - rexpop 6mo ago
    Onboard with what? Acclimatized to what? You reactionary types are always so damn cryptic and vague.
    - Brendinooo 6mo ago
      I suspect you're not asking these questions earnestly, given that you then pivot to calling me a "reactionary type".
      - rexpop 6mo ago
        I'm asking them earnestly!! Why wouldn't I both ask and express frustration?? Insufferable.
        Brendinooo 6mo ago
        Why did you call me a "reactionary type"? I can understand frustration at me being "cryptic and vague" - and that's something I could answer for you! But it seems like you already have an answer to that question, you have made a judgment about my values, and are now calling me insufferable. I asked you a question in this comment - and I wouldn't mind an answer, which is why I'm not tacking on a "you people" comment or some kind of insult, because I think that would make it less likely that I get one.
account42 6mo ago
Then you are doing yourself a disservice by alienating people that agree with you on important issues but disagree with you on others.

by slg 6mo ago

Brendinooo 6mo ago

You might be right; I don't know what the broad populace thinks of what EFF does. I'll ask you then: What are the three main areas of advocacy where you think the EFF has been the most visible and/or effective?

jeffbee 6mo ago
EFF has basically only succeeded in defending Section 230, which makes me wonder if the people who talk in this article and the people elsewhere on HN denouncing Section 230 know about each other.
- Terr_ 6mo ago
  There's been a lot of misinformation around section 230 in the last several years. This might be helpful, either as something to give out or to receive, depending. https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act/ https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referre... Granted, it's from 2020, so there may be updated versions by now.
slg 6mo ago
I can't definitively give you a top three and honestly don't see any value in ranking them like that. I would simply describe them as the ACLU for technology and the Internet in that they fight for general civil liberties. X and more specifically Elon Musk have shown that they are on the opposite side when it comes to many of those civil liberties even if they all agree on some other issues. Online censorship (both explicit and through algorithmic bias) is the most obvious example that bridges your two distinct groups. Musk might claim he agrees with the EFF on that, but through his and X's actions, it's clear he doesn't.
smaudet 6mo ago
It's an association fallacy - Musk may be a radical extremist on the right, and a technology mogul, you may find yourself aligning with some of his world views (not all of them, remember he is an extremist relative to yourself). So when people support EFF's technological goals (freedoms for users on technology platforms), if they are themselves possibly on the right, they project their own values onto the organization or system (which here is the EFF). Never-mind if some of those values are incompatible with the values you think you hold (being authoritarian generally is incompatible with being not being authoritarian about technology). When someone points out the (otherwise obvious) contradiction to you, you're surprised that your set of values is incongruous. Now this can happen to anyone coming from any political starting point, they agree with something but find it doesn't quite fit with their world views. If you are deeply religious about it, you tend to hold on for dear life and either decide to "pick" on set of values over another (suddenly you realize, actually, yes you would like to enslave everyone) or engage in some form of hypocrisy or another (authoritarians are good, but for some reason or the other I'm going to make an exception for technology).
- Brendinooo 6mo ago
  I dunno. My understanding of coalition building is "we disagree about a bunch of stuff, but we agree on this one thing, so let's work together on it". You seem to be saying: "if you disagree with me on the other stuff, your agreement on this thing is rooted in a contradictory value system you haven't fully examined". Is that correct?
  - smaudet 6mo ago
    Not exactly. Values have a hierarchy. You can't (effectively) agree to painting everything the color blue, if you can't agree what the color blue is. And you will run into a very similar issue when everyone starts objecting to the pink you have spread everywhere, despite supposedly agreeing to the color scheme.
    - dvt 6mo ago
      > Not exactly. But then you go on to describe exactly what @Brendinooo described, just under the guise of your system of "value hierarchy." The problem is that you can always default to "our values are hierarchically misaligned" and then never have to do any coalition building ever. So how do you solve that? Because it seems that you can't.
genxy 6mo ago
[flagged]
- zahlman 6mo ago
  Whatever you're trying to imply here, it's a personal attack that does not contribute to the discourse.
  - genxy 6mo ago
    The OP is coyling spraying half baked questions across discussion in an effort to do who knows what. It is an attack on the delivery, not the person.
    - zahlman 6mo ago
      No, nothing of the sort is happening. There is no reason to assume bad faith in those questions. The questions are not "half-baked". I make such dismissals because if I merely expressed doubt, it appears that you would make the same accusations against me. The burden of proof is on you; what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence; etc.
    - Brendinooo 6mo ago
      Just noting that I saw this, but I don't really see a point in replying outside of this comment at this time because I don't feel the need to prove myself to you, and I don't know how I could change what I'm writing to satisfy you personally anyways. Have a nice evening!

zahlman 6mo ago

> I think you're getting this type of response because many of us can't see any actual difference between those two groups besides your own politics and assumptions. I think that is why, yes. I also think the differences are really obvious, and I genuinely can't understand why so many people here can't see that.

Brendinooo 6mo ago
This might be the most interesting insight I gained by commenting here today. I expected people to be on board with it; I didn't expect people to be so acclimated to it that they don't even see how others might notice it.
- rexpop 6mo ago
  Onboard with what? Acclimatized to what? You reactionary types are always so damn cryptic and vague.
  - Brendinooo 6mo ago
    I suspect you're not asking these questions earnestly, given that you then pivot to calling me a "reactionary type".
    - rexpop 6mo ago
      I'm asking them earnestly!! Why wouldn't I both ask and express frustration?? Insufferable.
      - Brendinooo 6mo ago
        Why did you call me a "reactionary type"? I can understand frustration at me being "cryptic and vague" - and that's something I could answer for you! But it seems like you already have an answer to that question, you have made a judgment about my values, and are now calling me insufferable. I asked you a question in this comment - and I wouldn't mind an answer, which is why I'm not tacking on a "you people" comment or some kind of insult, because I think that would make it less likely that I get one.

account42 6mo ago

Then you are doing yourself a disservice by alienating people that agree with you on important issues but disagree with you on others.