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Should Computer Science Teachers Be Paid More Than Gym Teachers

2 points by Alfred2 14y ago

cyrusradfar 14y ago
The question should be: "Should a equally competent teachers be paid differently based on subject area?" No. Great teachers should be rewarded equally. It's no simpler to make a child value their body than to make a child value logic. The fact is, there are children who will do well and fail in both.
- daniel-cussen 14y ago
  All other things being equal, right, they should be rewarded equally because, ahem, we just assumed these other factors were irrelevant. But in today's job market, where employers are chasing CS professionals, it makes sense to pay CS teachers more provided you can attract good talent.
  - cyrusradfar 14y ago
    Would you agree that if a person is focused on making money they won't consider becoming a teacher? Paying $35K vs $30K still can't compete with what a reasonable tech company pays an engineer.
    - daniel-cussen 14y ago
      Where do teachers make that? I'm assuming it's starting out, and in USA (you used dollar symbols), but the expected value of becoming a teacher in the US, especially a public school teacher, is quite a bit higher than that. In any case, no, you're right, it absolutely cannot compete, especially not in the current environment. However, even people that are not in it just for the money can find it hard to live for less than a certain amount each year, and may find it hard to be a teacher if it means going without a car, for instance.
      - csense 14y ago
        What I'm going to say only applies to K-12 schools in the USA. College is much better. In many places teachers' unions are strong. Unions tend to unconditionally reward seniority. They frown on management being able to tie pay to talent/ability, or get rid of people who are grossly incompetent (let alone merely below average). So the talented are frustrated because their abilities aren't recognized, and tend to leave if they have better options, while bad teachers know that they have a safe job once they get their foot in the door. With high-stakes standardized testing, nonessentials like computer science have a tendency to take very low priority. Many high schools' definition of "computer science" is "how to use Word and PowerPoint, and maybe make a website (if you're lucky)" Actual programming is something students generally venture into on their own. Teachers -- especially bad ones -- often feel threatened by students who are smarter than they are. (Remember, schools attract the incompetent.) Students are actively discouraged from pursuing advanced topics like programming on school equipment (and in some cases are even punished).
      - cyrusradfar 14y ago
        You're right I'm off. Wasn't trying to exaggerate, was recalling what they made when I went to school 10 years ago. Median starting salary is just under $35K. So I'll correct myself and say $40K vs $35K. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary#by_Years_Experience http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary... Glad I learned something :)
csense 14y ago
Yes, computer science teachers should be paid more than gym teachers, because their opportunity cost for entering the teaching profession is higher. To elaborate: If well-qualified computer science teachers can make $B working for Bigcorp and $T from teaching, then they'll exit the schools as long as $B > $T. The same logic, of course, applies to gym teachers, but there presumably isn't nearly as much demand outside of the school system for their specific skills. (Here I'm thinking of $B and $T as more total utility than actual salary. In other words we need to convert into dollar terms intangibles like benefits, location, warm fuzzy feelings from shaping young lives, opportunity to work with newer technologies, etc.)

2 points by Alfred2 14y ago

The question should be: "Should a equally competent teachers be paid differently based on subject area?" No. Great teachers should be rewarded equally. It's no simpler to make a child value their body than to make a child value logic. The fact is, there are children who will do well and fail in both.

daniel-cussen 14y ago
All other things being equal, right, they should be rewarded equally because, ahem, we just assumed these other factors were irrelevant. But in today's job market, where employers are chasing CS professionals, it makes sense to pay CS teachers more provided you can attract good talent.
- cyrusradfar 14y ago
  Would you agree that if a person is focused on making money they won't consider becoming a teacher? Paying $35K vs $30K still can't compete with what a reasonable tech company pays an engineer.
  - daniel-cussen 14y ago
    Where do teachers make that? I'm assuming it's starting out, and in USA (you used dollar symbols), but the expected value of becoming a teacher in the US, especially a public school teacher, is quite a bit higher than that. In any case, no, you're right, it absolutely cannot compete, especially not in the current environment. However, even people that are not in it just for the money can find it hard to live for less than a certain amount each year, and may find it hard to be a teacher if it means going without a car, for instance.
    - csense 14y ago
      What I'm going to say only applies to K-12 schools in the USA. College is much better. In many places teachers' unions are strong. Unions tend to unconditionally reward seniority. They frown on management being able to tie pay to talent/ability, or get rid of people who are grossly incompetent (let alone merely below average). So the talented are frustrated because their abilities aren't recognized, and tend to leave if they have better options, while bad teachers know that they have a safe job once they get their foot in the door. With high-stakes standardized testing, nonessentials like computer science have a tendency to take very low priority. Many high schools' definition of "computer science" is "how to use Word and PowerPoint, and maybe make a website (if you're lucky)" Actual programming is something students generally venture into on their own. Teachers -- especially bad ones -- often feel threatened by students who are smarter than they are. (Remember, schools attract the incompetent.) Students are actively discouraged from pursuing advanced topics like programming on school equipment (and in some cases are even punished).
    - cyrusradfar 14y ago
      You're right I'm off. Wasn't trying to exaggerate, was recalling what they made when I went to school 10 years ago. Median starting salary is just under $35K. So I'll correct myself and say $40K vs $35K. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary#by_Years_Experience http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary... Glad I learned something :)

csense 14y ago

Yes, computer science teachers should be paid more than gym teachers, because their opportunity cost for entering the teaching profession is higher. To elaborate: If well-qualified computer science teachers can make $B working for Bigcorp and $T from teaching, then they'll exit the schools as long as $B > $T. The same logic, of course, applies to gym teachers, but there presumably isn't nearly as much demand outside of the school system for their specific skills. (Here I'm thinking of $B and $T as more total utility than actual salary. In other words we need to convert into dollar terms intangibles like benefits, location, warm fuzzy feelings from shaping young lives, opportunity to work with newer technologies, etc.)