4 ms·

If you press the browser’s back button on the donation page, they send you to a page pestering you for your email address so they can send you a reminder to don

by latexr 7mo ago

If you press the browser’s back button on the donation page, they send you to a page pestering you for your email address so they can send you a reminder to donate later. Talk about a dark pattern. Mozilla has really gone off the rails. An organisation who claims to work on behalf of the user and who makes a web browser, actively hijacking the user experience to peddle for a few dollars? Why the heck is Thunderbird “fully funded by financial contributions from [their] users”? Where do the billions of dollars from Google go? All the stupid doomed side projects which no one asked for nor wants and are abandoned after one year?

ksk23 7mo ago
Thought the same..
user3939382 7mo ago
LibreWolf should have no reason to exist. It does because Mozilla’s values are largely marketing.
amiga386 7mo ago
> Where do the billions of dollars from Google go? They go to the Mozilla Corporation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances The Mozilla Corporation then picks and chooses what it finances within the Mozilla Foundation. Their financial statements don't break down how they spend on software development within the Foundation, it only lists out employee salaries, specific directors' salaries and grants to outsiders... but it would seem Thunderbird doesn't get much if they're out begging. https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Fdn%202024%20-%20AuditedFinancials.pdf https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Fdn%202024%20-%20A... So, as an example, in 2024, it got: - $498,218,000 from royalties (e.g. Google) - $66,396,000 from paid services (e.g Pocket, VPN) and advertisers - $15,782,000 from donations And it spent: - $290,448,000 on programmer salaries - $163,516,000 on manager salaries - $36,358,000 on servers, cloud, etc. - $20,258,000 on consultants (e.g. branding consultants) - $9,573,000 on travel - $2,192,000 on grants and fellowships So overall, it didn't spent that much on the stupid doomed side projects! It spent a lot more on flying managers and marketing consultants to nice soirees. But the real question, not answered by this financial report, is how much programming labour was spent on Thunderbird, versus other Mozilla projects?
- CamouflagedKiwi 7mo ago
  My assumption would be that it's very little, given that Thunderbird was separated out of the Mozilla Corporation to MOZLA (or whatever it's called). On the bright side, that actually makes me a bit keener about donating to it; donating to the Mozilla Corporation seems entirely pointless given donations make up ~2.5% of their income, and less than 10% of what they spend just on manager salaries, whereas giving it to Thunderbird might actually have a positive impact.
  - amiga386 7mo ago
    I'm not sure which part it is in their accounts, but their Form 990 says: https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Foundation_Form_990_2024.pdf https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Foundation_Form_99... > MZLA TECHNOLOGIES CORPORATION share of total income: $10,760,074 So they don't break it down, but around 10 million went to the corporation that runs Thunderbird and other projects (versus 658 million to the one that runs the browser)
- vovavili 7mo ago
  >- $163,516,000 on manager salaries >- $20,258,000 on consultants (e.g. branding consultants) >- $9,573,000 on travel I am very glad to be using Brave at the moment of reading this.
drekipus 7mo ago
I don't think it's a dark pattern. Just a common marketing thing. Not "everything that annoys me" is a dark pattern.
- addandsubtract 7mo ago
  Stealing the function of the back button is a dark pattern.
- account42 7mo ago
  Most "common marketing things" are dark patterns. Being common does not make it right and we expect better than common for people who want our donations.
smarnach 7mo ago
I wasn't able to reproduce the back button hijack. It never asks me for an email address, regardless of what I try.
latexr 7mo ago
Credit where it’s due: I just rechecked the page and they no longer hijack the back button.

by latexr 7mo ago

ksk23 7mo ago

Thought the same..

user3939382 7mo ago

LibreWolf should have no reason to exist. It does because Mozilla’s values are largely marketing.

amiga386 7mo ago

> Where do the billions of dollars from Google go? They go to the Mozilla Corporation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances The Mozilla Corporation then picks and chooses what it finances within the Mozilla Foundation. Their financial statements don't break down how they spend on software development within the Foundation, it only lists out employee salaries, specific directors' salaries and grants to outsiders... but it would seem Thunderbird doesn't get much if they're out begging. https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Fdn%202024%20-%20AuditedFinancials.pdf https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Fdn%202024%20-%20A... So, as an example, in 2024, it got: - $498,218,000 from royalties (e.g. Google) - $66,396,000 from paid services (e.g Pocket, VPN) and advertisers - $15,782,000 from donations And it spent: - $290,448,000 on programmer salaries - $163,516,000 on manager salaries - $36,358,000 on servers, cloud, etc. - $20,258,000 on consultants (e.g. branding consultants) - $9,573,000 on travel - $2,192,000 on grants and fellowships So overall, it didn't spent that much on the stupid doomed side projects! It spent a lot more on flying managers and marketing consultants to nice soirees. But the real question, not answered by this financial report, is how much programming labour was spent on Thunderbird, versus other Mozilla projects?

CamouflagedKiwi 7mo ago
My assumption would be that it's very little, given that Thunderbird was separated out of the Mozilla Corporation to MOZLA (or whatever it's called). On the bright side, that actually makes me a bit keener about donating to it; donating to the Mozilla Corporation seems entirely pointless given donations make up ~2.5% of their income, and less than 10% of what they spend just on manager salaries, whereas giving it to Thunderbird might actually have a positive impact.
- amiga386 7mo ago
  I'm not sure which part it is in their accounts, but their Form 990 says: https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Foundation_Form_990_2024.pdf https://stateof.mozilla.org/pdf/Mozilla%20Foundation_Form_99... > MZLA TECHNOLOGIES CORPORATION share of total income: $10,760,074 So they don't break it down, but around 10 million went to the corporation that runs Thunderbird and other projects (versus 658 million to the one that runs the browser)
vovavili 7mo ago
>- $163,516,000 on manager salaries >- $20,258,000 on consultants (e.g. branding consultants) >- $9,573,000 on travel I am very glad to be using Brave at the moment of reading this.

drekipus 7mo ago

I don't think it's a dark pattern. Just a common marketing thing. Not "everything that annoys me" is a dark pattern.

addandsubtract 7mo ago
Stealing the function of the back button is a dark pattern.
account42 7mo ago
Most "common marketing things" are dark patterns. Being common does not make it right and we expect better than common for people who want our donations.

smarnach 7mo ago

I wasn't able to reproduce the back button hijack. It never asks me for an email address, regardless of what I try.

latexr 7mo ago

Credit where it’s due: I just rechecked the page and they no longer hijack the back button.