4 ms·

AFAICT, the problem in the UK is with too many people being allowed to stay for spurious reasons, not with people not being removed when they (legally) should b

AFAICT, the problem in the UK is with too many people being allowed to stay for spurious reasons, not with people not being removed when they (legally) should be ?

seanhunter 6mo ago
Honestly neither of these things is a remotely important problem in the UK. The whole conversation about immigration in the UK is just a dogwhistle to try to attract racist voters now that since brexit they can’t use conversation about the EU for that.
- mytailorisrich 6mo ago
  Immigration is actually one of the main issues in the UK and it's not about racism. Productivity, population growth (and impact on housing and services), population aging (and impact on social care and NHS), societal and cultural changes and conflicts, national identity, etc are all linked to immigration. The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. This is what pushes voters to Reform UK and away from the Tories, among other things. Labour is now doing the same (relatively tough talk but no actual effective action).
  - testfrequency 6mo ago
    Immigration is not a main issue in the UK. Maybe it is for you? It’s a topic, but not an “issue”.
    - mytailorisrich 6mo ago
      [flagged]
      - testfrequency 6mo ago
        So you want me to convince myself that immigration is an issue? You blame immigrants moving into the country causing what problem exactly? Too many NHS workers from foreign countries now, or too much competition for you when applying for roles?
        0xy 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        testfrequency 6mo ago
        !!!!! Wow. Foreigners == Bad. I’m assuming you couldn’t attend the exhibit? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-celebrates-untold-stories-of-filipino-nurses-in-nhs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-c...
        foldr 6mo ago
        This isn’t a serious contribution to the discussion. The overall level of NHS services would clearly be far lower (non-existent in some cases) without the contribution of immigrants.
        0xy 6mo ago
        Do you believe that foreigners should be allowed to practice as nurses with fake qualifications? Because the NHS does. As they were ACTIVELY working while the NHS knew about the forgery. Do you have evidence that there is a widespread, institutional fake qualifications problem with native NHS nurses? Please provide evidence. This is what would show that foreign workers in the NHS do not drag down standards on average.
        foldr 6mo ago
        We’re not going to figure out a practical way to improve the NHS with this level of debate. We get that you don’t like foreign nurses, but I’m not going to respond to your rhetorical questions.
  - foldr 6mo ago
    > The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign. Or, maybe massively restricting immigration is actually a great idea and the establishment is conspiring to prevent it. Just like with Brexit, right?
    - mytailorisrich 6mo ago
      High immigration is the cheaper short term solution at the "cost" of other, deeper issues. Restricting immigration is only be "bad" for the economy because systemic issues are not tackled. The NHS relies on foreign workers. Why? Because salaries and conditions are shit so locals either do not train for those jobs or give up and moce to Australia at some point. It is cheaper to keep it that way. 12% of 25-34 years old are "economically inactive", which means deep systemic issues. Generally immigration also keep salaries lower and also productivity lower (and that's why the left is actually historically not too keen). This is difficult to debate seriously because there is always someone to cry "racist".
      - foldr 6mo ago
        If you actually put the fixes for those “systemic issues” on the table, it’s obvious that no-one is going to vote for them, so they’re total non-starters. E.g. it would be great to pay nurses more, but no-one is going to vote for the tax hike required to fund it. If any of this is difficult to debate seriously, that’s because opponents of current immigration policy consistently appeal to the lowest common denominator (people’s prejudices) rather than framing a proper argument. Even in this thread, you can see someone trying (absurdly) to redirect the discussion towards some Nigerian nurses with fake qualifications.
    - pseudohadamard 6mo ago
      There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign. You missed one important point: A rational party, or at least one with a rational leader. If you're dumb enough you will go through with it no matter how much it hurts your economy, your health system, and your country as a whole. I'm not in the UK but maybe someone from there could provide an estimate, on a scale of 0 to Trump, where does Farage rate?
- testfrequency 6mo ago
  This is my opinion as well, and it’s not working (thankfully). Let them cry wolf.
  - Jerrrrrrrry 6mo ago
    [dead]
- itsthejb 6mo ago
  https://yougov.com/en-gb/trackers/do-brits-think-that-immigration-has-been-too-high-or-low-in-the-last-10-years https://yougov.com/en-gb/trackers/do-brits-think-that-immigr...
  - damnitbuilds 6mo ago
    "No, no, it's not an issue for ME" cry the demented Guardian readers.
- damnitbuilds 6mo ago
  As everywhere, immigration is not an issue for people who do not have to live in social/cheap rented housing in ghettos and have jobs that require a good education. For the other half of societies, the half you did not meet in college, it is a problem and they are voting for racist parties because the other parties have not reduced immigration it and they think the racist parties will.
  - ratrace 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]

AFAICT, the problem in the UK is with too many people being allowed to stay for spurious reasons, not with people not being removed when they (legally) should be ?

seanhunter 6mo ago

Honestly neither of these things is a remotely important problem in the UK. The whole conversation about immigration in the UK is just a dogwhistle to try to attract racist voters now that since brexit they can’t use conversation about the EU for that.

mytailorisrich 6mo ago
Immigration is actually one of the main issues in the UK and it's not about racism. Productivity, population growth (and impact on housing and services), population aging (and impact on social care and NHS), societal and cultural changes and conflicts, national identity, etc are all linked to immigration. The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. This is what pushes voters to Reform UK and away from the Tories, among other things. Labour is now doing the same (relatively tough talk but no actual effective action).
- testfrequency 6mo ago
  Immigration is not a main issue in the UK. Maybe it is for you? It’s a topic, but not an “issue”.
  - mytailorisrich 6mo ago
    [flagged]
    - testfrequency 6mo ago
      So you want me to convince myself that immigration is an issue? You blame immigrants moving into the country causing what problem exactly? Too many NHS workers from foreign countries now, or too much competition for you when applying for roles?
      - 0xy 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        testfrequency 6mo ago
        !!!!! Wow. Foreigners == Bad. I’m assuming you couldn’t attend the exhibit? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-celebrates-untold-stories-of-filipino-nurses-in-nhs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-c...
        foldr 6mo ago
        This isn’t a serious contribution to the discussion. The overall level of NHS services would clearly be far lower (non-existent in some cases) without the contribution of immigrants.
        0xy 6mo ago
        Do you believe that foreigners should be allowed to practice as nurses with fake qualifications? Because the NHS does. As they were ACTIVELY working while the NHS knew about the forgery. Do you have evidence that there is a widespread, institutional fake qualifications problem with native NHS nurses? Please provide evidence. This is what would show that foreign workers in the NHS do not drag down standards on average.
        foldr 6mo ago
        We’re not going to figure out a practical way to improve the NHS with this level of debate. We get that you don’t like foreign nurses, but I’m not going to respond to your rhetorical questions.
- foldr 6mo ago
  > The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign. Or, maybe massively restricting immigration is actually a great idea and the establishment is conspiring to prevent it. Just like with Brexit, right?
  - mytailorisrich 6mo ago
    High immigration is the cheaper short term solution at the "cost" of other, deeper issues. Restricting immigration is only be "bad" for the economy because systemic issues are not tackled. The NHS relies on foreign workers. Why? Because salaries and conditions are shit so locals either do not train for those jobs or give up and moce to Australia at some point. It is cheaper to keep it that way. 12% of 25-34 years old are "economically inactive", which means deep systemic issues. Generally immigration also keep salaries lower and also productivity lower (and that's why the left is actually historically not too keen). This is difficult to debate seriously because there is always someone to cry "racist".
    - foldr 6mo ago
      If you actually put the fixes for those “systemic issues” on the table, it’s obvious that no-one is going to vote for them, so they’re total non-starters. E.g. it would be great to pay nurses more, but no-one is going to vote for the tax hike required to fund it. If any of this is difficult to debate seriously, that’s because opponents of current immigration policy consistently appeal to the lowest common denominator (people’s prejudices) rather than framing a proper argument. Even in this thread, you can see someone trying (absurdly) to redirect the discussion towards some Nigerian nurses with fake qualifications.
  - pseudohadamard 6mo ago
    There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign. You missed one important point: A rational party, or at least one with a rational leader. If you're dumb enough you will go through with it no matter how much it hurts your economy, your health system, and your country as a whole. I'm not in the UK but maybe someone from there could provide an estimate, on a scale of 0 to Trump, where does Farage rate?
testfrequency 6mo ago
This is my opinion as well, and it’s not working (thankfully). Let them cry wolf.
- Jerrrrrrrry 6mo ago
  [dead]
itsthejb 6mo ago
https://yougov.com/en-gb/trackers/do-brits-think-that-immigration-has-been-too-high-or-low-in-the-last-10-years https://yougov.com/en-gb/trackers/do-brits-think-that-immigr...
- damnitbuilds 6mo ago
  "No, no, it's not an issue for ME" cry the demented Guardian readers.
damnitbuilds 6mo ago
As everywhere, immigration is not an issue for people who do not have to live in social/cheap rented housing in ghettos and have jobs that require a good education. For the other half of societies, the half you did not meet in college, it is a problem and they are voting for racist parties because the other parties have not reduced immigration it and they think the racist parties will.
- ratrace 6mo ago
  [dead]
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]