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Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn

by 0x3f 6mo ago

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structurally, we'd be much better off reducing conflicts between the different tiers of users. I.e. properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle.

eigenspace 6mo ago
A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down. With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.
- ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago
  > With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though. There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing). I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.
  - eigenspace 6mo ago
    > I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. It works surprisingly well if the car isn't moving quickly. Cars aren't as sound isolating as you'd think. My main use-case is that a car is stopped at an intersection, or crossing my lane so they can turn, and I'm worried they'll pull out and hit me because they're looking the wrong way focused on car traffic, and in these situations they almost always hear my bell.
- 0x3f 6mo ago
  I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'. At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it. In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast. On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.
  - skeeter2020 6mo ago
    it's a good habit to just ring your bell when approaching things like merges and city intersections regardless if there's other people; you tend to do it earlier and might miss seeing someone.
- deleted 6mo ago
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- walletdrainer 6mo ago
  > If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds. In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
  - eigenspace 6mo ago
    I still think that ringing bells at people is a little rude, regardless of the tone. Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me". IMO if I'm in a dense pedestrian zone and I can't go around people and I can't communicate by voice, it means I'm going too fast.
    - walletdrainer 6mo ago
      >blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me". Well, at least here in Europe I’d have to spend a decent amount of time deciding which language to use.
      - eigenspace 6mo ago
        I'm also in Europe, and I always just either say the equivalent in the local language, or just use english. Even in the smallest most remote villages, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know the word "sorry".
        walletdrainer 6mo ago
        I’ve found that speaking the wrong language often results in people freezing up as they process what I just said to them, that’s often counterproductive.
- iamthemonster 6mo ago
  My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell. My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.
  - the_snooze 6mo ago
    That's how I do it too. I'll tap bell once (and let the ring sustain) when I'm about ~5 seconds from overtaking them so people know there's something coming up behind them, and the sustained sound tells them how fast it's coming. This is especially important with runners, who are prone to suddenly take a U-turn if they're at the end of their route. Pedestrians regularly wave acknowledgement or even say "thank you." Some other cyclists (especially on e-bikes) just blast by with no warning.
  - jandrese 6mo ago
    The problem with bells is that they aren't very directional. It's hard for my brain to figure out from which direction the sound is coming from. Someone speaking "on your left" is much more directional, and it includes important context as to what the warning is about.
    - samdixon 6mo ago
      Its pretty safe to assume on a trail if you hear a bell that a bike is coming up behind you.
      - jandrese 6mo ago
        Or from the side or oncoming and he's just behind the crowd of pedestrians ahead of you.
        6mo ago
- jwr 6mo ago
  > A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.
  - lostlogin 6mo ago
    The ultimate cyclist killer: those stupid extending dog leashes.
    - jwr 6mo ago
      Back when I roller skated, the ultimate question: you see a person and a dog, several meters apart. Is there a leash between them? :-)
      - lostlogin 6mo ago
        Oof. If yes, you might be about to get nailed. If no, will the dog run after me and bite me? I’ve had a dog on my heels doing doing 40kmh. They were at my heel, past the back of my rear tyre. I was briefly a competitive sprint cyclist.
        jwr 6mo ago
        FWIW, it's better to stop and talk to the dog. Dogs don't really want to bite you, most will just chase you and don't really even know why. If you stop and confront them, they are confused and don't know what to do next. Get off the bike on the side opposite of the dog and keep the bike between you and the dog just in case, if you are afraid.
        lostlogin 6mo ago
        Nope, I was out of there. This one was a biter.
- mfashby 6mo ago
  It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass. Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.
- jmull 6mo ago
  Agreed. I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).
  - empyrrhicist 6mo ago
    Shouting that while traveling too fast is indeed incorrect, but a polite "on your left" or bell while traveling an appropriate speed is considered good behavior to avoid surprising pedestrians.
    - jmull 6mo ago
      Outside of some stage actors and drill sergeants, there are probably few people who can project their voices well enough that a vocal warning is useful. You're either traveling slow enough that it's not necessary (and why yell at people if you have to?), or are too far away for someone to understand and get a bearing on who isn't already looking at you. A bell is still rude in a shared space but used correctly, a decent one can at least be effective.
      - bigblind 6mo ago
        If you just bell once or twice, and don't aggressively keep ringing, I'd never consider a bicycle bell in a shared space rude. I even consider it good manners, though as others have said, that varies between cultures. Being visually impaired, though, I'm grateful for cyclists who use their bell. It's immediately clear. For some reason, my brain takes slightly longer to process someone yelling "on your left!" or similar, than just a quick "ring ring".
      - empyrrhicist 6mo ago
        > A bell is still rude in a shared space I just don't think that is even a little bit true, or at least it's something that is very culturally specific and thus not generally applicable. I have a friendly sounding bell I use from an appropriate distance (and I can modulate the volume), and I routinely have people give a light wave to show they heard. In addition, the biggest complaint about cyclists in local social media is about them passing without notice.
- empyrrhicist 6mo ago
  > Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).
  - jandrese 6mo ago
    On the bike trail it is crucial to do a shoulder check when changing lanes. Some people get "in the zone" and ignore all other traffic in the singular pursuit of the shortest times. They will get very very angry if you get in front of them, if they spot you at all instead of just slamming into your rear tire at full speed.
    - empyrrhicist 6mo ago
      I personally can't stand to ride without a mirror for situational awareness (or, if on road, a mirror and also radar).
  - kube-system 6mo ago
    > This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing This is neither customarily nor regulatory uniform. There are mixed-use trails near me where bells are required. There are some trails where most people use a bell, some trails where nobody uses a bell, and some where there is a mix. In my personal experience, the ratio of bikes to pedestrians and the purpose of the trail greatly affects how people tend to handle this.
  - calyth2018 6mo ago
    Announcing "on your left" is a great way for someone to move left, because more often than not, they're oblivious on the shared paths, and the spotlight effect messes with their head.
- mr_mitm 6mo ago
  > I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.
  - FridgeSeal 6mo ago
    It sounds silly, but apart from liking the sound, this is why I really like wheels with loud hubs. I have a pair of Hunt wheels and they work fantastically, bonus points because they are “always on”, pedestrians are aware of them, but are never surprised.
    - andrewshadura 6mo ago
      I hate loud hubs. So disturbing. Also comes across as passive aggressive.
  - redpola 6mo ago
    See how your comment has inbuilt sass? It doesn’t matter what you consider plenty of space and an appropriate speed- if you startle me, I’m going to yell at you for not ringing a bell to let me know you were there. Note that the worst kind of canal towpath cyclist is the one who slows to a crawl and creeps behind me for minutes sometimes unnoticed, biding their time for a passing spot with lots of space. Just ring the frigging bell and I will stand out of your way for the 3 seconds it takes you to get by!
- stevage 6mo ago
  >My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there. In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move". But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.
  - Waterluvian 6mo ago
    I've always wanted two horns in my car: one that toots with a smile and a tip of the hat, and one that heralds your pending demise. It sounds like Australia cycle bell culture does that with short vs. long bell ding-a-lings. Which is kind of how it has worked with cars, except I find that more and more cars have a style of horn that's hard to control with the necessary precision. Maybe this is Canadian culture but I get very anxious that my horn will honk for a millisecond too long and the poor victim will think I'm angry at them.
    - skeeter2020 6mo ago
      go somewhere appropriate and do a little practice with the friendly multi-tap vs. the two-hand push! adding on a wave helps too; I wish more drivers waved...
      - Waterluvian 6mo ago
        I hate how many cars I see these days with windows so tinted that eye contact and waves are impossible. It feels dangerous to be unable to see the driver through their side window (eg. 4-way stop eye contact on who goes)
        6mo ago
- haritha-j 6mo ago
  Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.
- youknownothing 6mo ago
  Thank you, I'm a cyclist too and I always try to respect pedestrians' space, and it really pisses me off when people don't. In many cities cycling on pavement is not allowed, yet some cyclists do it... which I'd be fine with, provided they understand that they're doing something they're not supposed to be doing and that they have no priority. But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them, I literally want to throw a stick in their wheels.
  - KomoD 6mo ago
    > But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them Honestly, I prefer that over those damn electric scooters. Most people who ride them are complete morons. They don't pay attention, ride into traffic, go at high speeds and don't care about anyone except themselves. I’ve even been hit by one.
    - youknownothing 6mo ago
      YES! I get the point of mobility and all that but I wish someone would give a ticket to some of those a-holes. Honestly, town halls have been looking the other way for far too long on this matter.
- calyth2018 6mo ago
  https://www.ontario.ca/page/bicycle-safety https://www.ontario.ca/page/bicycle-safety We are required to have a bell in Ontario. Ontario, at the minimum, asks us to ring a bell, or verbally communicate, when we are passing people. I've lost count of the amount of people walking abreast taking both sides of a shared path. I've lost count of the amount of times I've rang a bell in vain to inform them of intent to pass. I've lost count of the amount of times I've tried verbally communicate in vain, to inform of intent to pass. And then these path users, completely oblivious of what's going on, act like I'm the villain when I do pass them despite doing what is required of me. Some even had holler back saying that I should have ran a bell, or tell them. If one's using a shared path, don't use headphones that completely block outside sound. If one wants to meditate, then get off the shared path.
ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago
I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake. My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out something like "can I get past, please?" or if an immediate response is required (e.g. ped blindly stepping into the road ahead of me) then yelling "Oi!" can really surprise them and make them notice you. I'm also a fan of using "Beep, beep" if a ped is on cycle infrastructure (active travel infrastructure is probably a better term) and I want to pretend that I'm an impatient driver. I think the human voice is far superior to a bell as you can tailor the message for the situation and you don't have to move a hand away from the brakes to do so. (Using your voice is also a very good idea when approaching a horse and rider - horses know about humans and don't get freaked out if you call ahead "Morning!" or something cheery and appropriate).
- lxgr 6mo ago
  On my bike commute route, I'd lose my voice before the first meeting of the day if I had to use only my voice.
- leoedin 6mo ago
  I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake. The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.
lxgr 6mo ago
> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? They absolutely do, for indirect reasons: > Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic. With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if they still haven't noticed the oncoming bike. If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money (especially for bike delivery workers, but I also hate having to sharply decelerate for people glued to their screen or otherwise completely unaware of their surroundings even if I'm not in a rush), so you can take a guess as to whether "just reducing your speed" is practicable.
- ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago
  I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario. Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path. The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.
  - lxgr 6mo ago
    To be clear, I am still reducing my speed if I don't get positive confirmation that I've been noticed or if there's not enough time for a reaction to even happen. My bell just gives me the significant improvement of possibly getting a reaction from the pedestrian long before I need to start braking. However, not everybody does cycle like that. And while legally and ethically dubious, the bell still helps in that case as well.
shermozle 6mo ago
A car company wanting to divert attention away from the carnage cars cause. Seems a bit suspicious no?
- croemer 6mo ago
  In Skoda's defense, it has a long tradition of making bicycles as well
- tokai 6mo ago
  Skoda is a huge sponsor of professionel cycling.
- Theodores 6mo ago
  In the UK, an important market for VW group, there are two types of bicycle, one for the proletariat and the other for the bourgeoisie. Due to the k-shaped economy, the proletariat bicycle died a long time ago, to evolve into the 'Lime bike' in places such as London. In the past, companies such as Raleigh provided excellent proletariat bicycles, and the working man could afford them for his kids and himself. Of course, he would prefer a car, because cars are high status whereas a steel/aluminium bicycle with straight bars is not. The bourgeoisie bicycle is a relatively recent phenomenon, and anything totally impractical and made of carbon fibre qualifies as bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie bicycle is also too expensive to lock up in town, plus you need all the clobber to go with it (lycra). Every bourgeoisie bicycle is owned by a car dependent person. They don't begin their ride at their front door, and their journeys are not useful or with purpose beyond cycling. Their bicycles get strapped onto the back of their car, or placed in the trunk, with wheels removed. These people don't need locks for their bicycles as they have a two tonne steel box to secure their bicycle in. You also get things like power-meters with these bikes, plus the owner has to wear a special polystyrene hat, at the insistence of their mother. Skoda are selling to those people that spend £5K+ on their toy carbon fibre bicycle. They know the realities of car dependency.
  - pandaman 6mo ago
    Why would somebody transport a bike on car to London and ride on the streets crowded with pedestrians? And attach a massive bell to a carbon bike to facilitate that? The video shows that they have given these to delivery riders, which seems to be the target audience for a device like that. Seeing that this story is going viral everywhere it appears to be a quite a successful PR campaign. I doubt it's a real product though now I imagine similar devices will appear on Alibaba and Amazon.
i_am_proteus 6mo ago
Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette: Passing a single pedestrian or runner on a quiet day: no bell, coasting for a short bit with a loud free hub (the rotating ratchet element on the rear wheel) alerts the pedestrian to my presence. Passing a runner: normal ring from a distance so they have knowledge that the bicycle is passing Passing a cyclist: one loud ring from a distance Passing a pedestrian walking a dog: two loud rings, one far, one close, so that the pedestrian is aware of the approaching bicycle and he can prevent his dog from running at me/colliding. Many dogs do seem to enjoy a bicycle chase. Antisocial pedestrians (i.e., walking side-by-side such as to be blocking the path in both directions, preventing the bicyclist from passing): several loud rings of the bell until the antisocial activity has abated. Announcements in my local tongue (not English) that they impede the flow of traffic.
- 0x3f 6mo ago
  Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.
- noio 6mo ago
  I wonder if you are German? Spending some time in Germany from Holland I notice there is a significant difference in cycling etiquette :) Especially regarding “passing a cyclist” which also touches on the essential difficulty with having only one “ring” sound. Always when Germans pass me on the bike and they ring I get slightly annoyed because I interpret it as a “get out of the way” ring, and I feel like there is enough space. But perhaps it’s just the cautious “don’t do anything unexpected” ring. A Dutch person would rarely ring at another cyclist in the former way. But they also might be less safety focused while cycling (see also: helmet usage). Or we have safer infrastructure already. On a road bike, however, I too ring at pedestrians “preemptively”. For sure GPs remark of “if you need to ring you’re going too fast” applies here but that’s the essence of road cycling. Ironically I’m also annoyed when road cyclists ring at me for the same reason. Just shows the case for having 2 clearly different types of rings. (Also for cars to have a “thank you” horn, haha)
furyg3 6mo ago
I've been a cyclist in SF and in Amsterdam, both for many years. In SF I used my bell much more aggressively. It was mainly for cars, if I'm in or entering their blind spot and my spidey sense tells me they are considering an action that places me in danger. For example, we all know when driving when the car in front of us is thinking about merging, even before they indicate (often I feel like I know before they do). I also used it for pedestrians stepping out into the street who are maybe looking past me for oncoming cars but somehow don't see me, or when approaching 'blind' situations like a sharp corner, a driver pulling out of a driveway but there is a tree between us, delivery drivers stepping out from their truck, etc. I can't say how many accidents have been prevented (the person may have eventually looked and seen me), but I can say that my bell has triggered people to look and see me earlier than they were going to had I not rang it. In Amsterdam my bell is used much more sparingly. It's mostly for tourists stepping into (or considering stepping into) the bike lane. If they are already in the bike lane, I almost always prefer just to slow down a bit and dodge them, as ringing the bell often triggers a deer-caught-in-headlight moment or erratic behavior, which increases the chance of an accident or that I have to come to a full stop. The other situation is to express dissatisfaction at cars blocking bike lanes, cars/bikes not yielding, drivers blocking intersections, or other dangerous behavior. This isn't preventing an accident but I'd argue it is still important, as social control affects how often we make bad decisions. Outside the city I also use my bell to let other cyclists know I'm passing. So yeah, I'd say bells prevent accidents, but obviously not as well as good biking infrastructure, where pedestrians, bikes, and cars have clear separate spaces, and visibility of cyclists to drivers is high.
sandos 6mo ago
"Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?" If you are a sane person, absolutely not!! You _try_ the bell, if people react, then you go. Many times it just confuses people or people ignore it. If you are a high-speed maniac and _rely_ on the bell to clear a path for you... then yeah. But you are then also likely to take great risks in general and will probably be in other accidents...
deleted 6mo ago
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BrtByte 6mo ago
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michael1999 6mo ago
There are a lot of runners on mixed use paths wearing headphones these days. They are an absolute danger to overtaking bikes. A bell they would hear would be useful.
- PowerElectronix 6mo ago
  To me, in a path with no priority to the bike, the only danger are cyclist who think they have priority and can overtake people at speed. Being able to get the attention of runners improves the situation, reducing the speed while circulating on a mixed path solves it completely. If you wanna go fast get on a bike lane or the road.
  - pandaman 6mo ago
    I don't quite follow, how slowing makes the problem of a runner jumping into the side of your bike go away? If anything it makes it more likely he or she will knock you off the bike since a slower moving bike is less stable and also increases the time you are in the danger zone next to a runner. And runners do jump between the lanes for no apparent reason.
- throw83940449 6mo ago
  Pedestrians are not danger, they are victims! Cyclist should slow down, while performing dangerous overtaking, and not crash into them! Same rules like with cars!
- falsemyrmidon 6mo ago
  I suppose you feel similarly about the dangers bikes pose to cars?
  - faefox 6mo ago
    Running with ANC headphones on is like driving with your eyes closed. Safety is a two-way street and it's everyone's responsibility to maintain a basic level of situational awareness.
- 6mo ago
serial_dev 6mo ago
It's not only about preventing accidents (but I do believe it prevents some to attempt answering your question). It's also about signaling to someone that they might be doing something wrong or they might not be paying attention. For pedestrians it takes significantly less time and distance to stop, for cars, trams, and bicycles, it takes longer. It happens all the time that pedestrians don't know the customs of a country, they don't recognize bike lines... in that case the cyclists do not need to pump the breaks anytime a clueless tourist gets in front of them... they can ring the bell, signaling: "yo, it's not how we do it here, please watch out, I'm coming full speed and you are in the wrong, so please look up from your phone and stop right there". I also had the luck to meet some people thinking they can be on their phone while cycling, drifting into my lane, etc... In that case, a bell is also adequate "hey, please stop writing a text message while you are on your bike blazing through the city, you are driving as if you were drunk, pay attention please and stop multitasking (you moron)" If nothing works to change their behavior, of course I'll try my best and hit the brakes safely, but I'd prefer they learned how to move around in the city safely.
- literalAardvark 6mo ago
  My experiences on a motorcycle tell me that if you feel the need to honk you should be focusing on braking and evasive maneuvers instead. The choice between between teaching some midwit the law and going home in one piece seems crystal clear to me. In a couple of years of riding I think the horn would have very slightly helped maybe... once or twice. If the other guy would have heard it at all which is doubtful.
  - kzrdude 6mo ago
    As someone who cycles daily, the bell is less aggressive than a car horn and it's a useful signaling tool about every other day. I need to signal that I'm approaching from behind pedestrians, especially if they are walking without any safe gaps for me to pass them through.
- SoftTalker 6mo ago
  Phones? I've seen cyclists using laptops. Some of the most oblivious and entitled vehicle operators on the road.
mikkupikku 6mo ago
They certainly can, yes. Many crashes can be avoided if both parties slam on the brakes or swerve, not not quite if only one does. Also they're useful in parking lots when some dumbass is about to back right into you.
prmoustache 6mo ago
> In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient I have seen a small kid jump from his father's scooter just when I was overtaking them and they decided to stop because he had seen his grandpa or whoever was that old guy on the other side of the bike lane. His father managed to stop him by grabbing his sweater because I had rung my bell a few seconds before he decided to stop but the kid ended up inches from my bicycle. It was at very low speed, almost walking speed yet hitting a bicycle handlebars head first because you turn around without looking still hurts even if the bicycle his stopped.
- 0x3f 6mo ago
  If I'm driving and I see a young kid like this I always move out away from the curb if possible. So even if they dart out or fall into the road it's not a problem. Actually, same if I'm passing a bunch of parked cars and there is room, since kids can be stupid and emerge from between them. If someone truly runs into when you're stationary, I'm not sure anyone really has a problem with you in that scenario.
  - prmoustache 6mo ago
    I don't want people to get hurts, regardless if it is my fault or not. Our world/societes could do with more empathy even if some people do errors. For the same reason I try to be courteous and try to always say "hello, thank you, have a nice day" even if sometimes I am fuming inside that someone cut my path and I had priority from a legal point of view. I also quietly slow down and give ample distance to someone who cross the street when I am driving even when it is a stupid decision from their part and others would have honked or shouted insults. I don't think our life and interactions should always be a case of us vs them.
jmull 6mo ago
You're right, it's certainly not the primary way to prevent accidents. But it helps at the edges, which seems worthwhile. That's assuming the bells aren't abused too badly, which is a mixed bag, but mostly true.
kfarr 6mo ago
Bells don’t work on cars, I’ve been using this in SF and motorists respond very quickly https://loudbicycle.com/ https://loudbicycle.com/
skeeter2020 6mo ago
horns & bells are for pedestrians IME, not cars. >> properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle. I ride a lot in traffic and the problem with segregated infrastructure (i.e. bike lanes) is the interfaces and constriction. Pedestrians step off the sidewalk or out of cars into constrained bike lanes all the time and there's no where to go; cars turn across bike lanes with the same problem. You can't always do it, but if you can eliminate the speed differential I believe riding in traffic is much safer than a bike lane, at least until you get enough bike volume to keep drivers aware. THat's hard to do in most of NA or year round.
left-struck 6mo ago
In cars a horn has saved me a few times where someone was backing up or turning into me not realising I was there. In those situations my car was stationary so there was nothing else I could do as quickly as pressing the horn

by 0x3f 6mo ago

eigenspace 6mo ago

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down. With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.

ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago
> With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though. There's only a few types of car that will be "aware" of cyclists and I don't think ringing a bell will help their algorithms. Getting the attention of a driver, meanwhile, is difficult with a bell as often they'll be in a semi-soundproof cage with loud music on. (Also deaf drivers are a thing). I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. I did once buy a loud air-horn, but it was so loud and abrasive that I never used it as it seemed really rude.
- eigenspace 6mo ago
  > I've never really considered using a bell for motorised traffic. It works surprisingly well if the car isn't moving quickly. Cars aren't as sound isolating as you'd think. My main use-case is that a car is stopped at an intersection, or crossing my lane so they can turn, and I'm worried they'll pull out and hit me because they're looking the wrong way focused on car traffic, and in these situations they almost always hear my bell.
0x3f 6mo ago
I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'. At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it. In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast. On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.
- skeeter2020 6mo ago
  it's a good habit to just ring your bell when approaching things like merges and city intersections regardless if there's other people; you tend to do it earlier and might miss seeing someone.
deleted 6mo ago
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walletdrainer 6mo ago
> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds. In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.
- eigenspace 6mo ago
  I still think that ringing bells at people is a little rude, regardless of the tone. Like imagine if you were at the grocery store, blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me". IMO if I'm in a dense pedestrian zone and I can't go around people and I can't communicate by voice, it means I'm going too fast.
  - walletdrainer 6mo ago
    >blocking the isle and someone lightly chimed a bell at you instead of just saying "excuse me". Well, at least here in Europe I’d have to spend a decent amount of time deciding which language to use.
    - eigenspace 6mo ago
      I'm also in Europe, and I always just either say the equivalent in the local language, or just use english. Even in the smallest most remote villages, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know the word "sorry".
      - walletdrainer 6mo ago
        I’ve found that speaking the wrong language often results in people freezing up as they process what I just said to them, that’s often counterproductive.
iamthemonster 6mo ago
My solution to this is that I ring my bell when I'm far from people, usually twice while I'm still a fair way away. It just gets pedestrians conscious that there's a bike around, while also being far enough away that it's not going to surprise them and I don't think they assume it's an aggressive bell. My least favourite is when a cyclist speeds past and shouts "on ya right" (I'm in Australia) but they shout it when they're so close that there's no chance of hearing and understanding in time.
- the_snooze 6mo ago
  That's how I do it too. I'll tap bell once (and let the ring sustain) when I'm about ~5 seconds from overtaking them so people know there's something coming up behind them, and the sustained sound tells them how fast it's coming. This is especially important with runners, who are prone to suddenly take a U-turn if they're at the end of their route. Pedestrians regularly wave acknowledgement or even say "thank you." Some other cyclists (especially on e-bikes) just blast by with no warning.
- jandrese 6mo ago
  The problem with bells is that they aren't very directional. It's hard for my brain to figure out from which direction the sound is coming from. Someone speaking "on your left" is much more directional, and it includes important context as to what the warning is about.
  - samdixon 6mo ago
    Its pretty safe to assume on a trail if you hear a bell that a bike is coming up behind you.
    - jandrese 6mo ago
      Or from the side or oncoming and he's just behind the crowd of pedestrians ahead of you.
      - 6mo ago
jwr 6mo ago
> A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" This. I only use the bell on bike paths, too. Sometimes it feels like a game of pac-man, where baddies will wander into my path from all directions and in all kinds of ways. Cars doing a right turn, zombies staring into phones, people walking backwards (!), zombies staring into phones walking backwards, it doesn't end.
- lostlogin 6mo ago
  The ultimate cyclist killer: those stupid extending dog leashes.
  - jwr 6mo ago
    Back when I roller skated, the ultimate question: you see a person and a dog, several meters apart. Is there a leash between them? :-)
    - lostlogin 6mo ago
      Oof. If yes, you might be about to get nailed. If no, will the dog run after me and bite me? I’ve had a dog on my heels doing doing 40kmh. They were at my heel, past the back of my rear tyre. I was briefly a competitive sprint cyclist.
      - jwr 6mo ago
        FWIW, it's better to stop and talk to the dog. Dogs don't really want to bite you, most will just chase you and don't really even know why. If you stop and confront them, they are confused and don't know what to do next. Get off the bike on the side opposite of the dog and keep the bike between you and the dog just in case, if you are afraid.
        lostlogin 6mo ago
        Nope, I was out of there. This one was a biter.
mfashby 6mo ago
It's essential on narrow shared paths e.g. a canal towpath, when you're approaching a pedestrian from behind in order to avoid startling them when you pass. Most people walking the canal towpath around here know this, runners in particular will sometimes be give a wave or visual acknowledgement they've heard you without turning around.
jmull 6mo ago
Agreed. I saw one recently where the cyclist shouted out something like, "ON YOUR LEFT!" and all it did was startle the crap out of a jogger who spun around into the path of the bicycle. Luckily just a close call. That cyclist's "warnings", with no time for pedestrians to react properly, were really just a game of Russian roulette. (And really rude, as you say).
- empyrrhicist 6mo ago
  Shouting that while traveling too fast is indeed incorrect, but a polite "on your left" or bell while traveling an appropriate speed is considered good behavior to avoid surprising pedestrians.
  - jmull 6mo ago
    Outside of some stage actors and drill sergeants, there are probably few people who can project their voices well enough that a vocal warning is useful. You're either traveling slow enough that it's not necessary (and why yell at people if you have to?), or are too far away for someone to understand and get a bearing on who isn't already looking at you. A bell is still rude in a shared space but used correctly, a decent one can at least be effective.
    - bigblind 6mo ago
      If you just bell once or twice, and don't aggressively keep ringing, I'd never consider a bicycle bell in a shared space rude. I even consider it good manners, though as others have said, that varies between cultures. Being visually impaired, though, I'm grateful for cyclists who use their bell. It's immediately clear. For some reason, my brain takes slightly longer to process someone yelling "on your left!" or similar, than just a quick "ring ring".
    - empyrrhicist 6mo ago
      > A bell is still rude in a shared space I just don't think that is even a little bit true, or at least it's something that is very culturally specific and thus not generally applicable. I have a friendly sounding bell I use from an appropriate distance (and I can modulate the volume), and I routinely have people give a light wave to show they heard. In addition, the biggest complaint about cyclists in local social media is about them passing without notice.
empyrrhicist 6mo ago
> Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing, and a bell is a nice alternative. Even cycling slowly pedestrians can do some very erratic things, and moreover are very surprised when cyclists suddenly appear on their left (and may do something dumb in surprise!).
- jandrese 6mo ago
  On the bike trail it is crucial to do a shoulder check when changing lanes. Some people get "in the zone" and ignore all other traffic in the singular pursuit of the shortest times. They will get very very angry if you get in front of them, if they spot you at all instead of just slamming into your rear tire at full speed.
  - empyrrhicist 6mo ago
    I personally can't stand to ride without a mirror for situational awareness (or, if on road, a mirror and also radar).
- kube-system 6mo ago
  > This is wrong - on mixed use paths, it is customary and proper to announce "on your left" when passing This is neither customarily nor regulatory uniform. There are mixed-use trails near me where bells are required. There are some trails where most people use a bell, some trails where nobody uses a bell, and some where there is a mix. In my personal experience, the ratio of bikes to pedestrians and the purpose of the trail greatly affects how people tend to handle this.
- calyth2018 6mo ago
  Announcing "on your left" is a great way for someone to move left, because more often than not, they're oblivious on the shared paths, and the spotlight effect messes with their head.
mr_mitm 6mo ago
> I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, I got yelled at very rudely the other day for overtaking a pedestrian without ringing my bell. I thought I had plenty of space, rode at an appropriate speed and didn't want to be rude, like you said, but I guess you can never please everyone.
- FridgeSeal 6mo ago
  It sounds silly, but apart from liking the sound, this is why I really like wheels with loud hubs. I have a pair of Hunt wheels and they work fantastically, bonus points because they are “always on”, pedestrians are aware of them, but are never surprised.
  - andrewshadura 6mo ago
    I hate loud hubs. So disturbing. Also comes across as passive aggressive.
- redpola 6mo ago
  See how your comment has inbuilt sass? It doesn’t matter what you consider plenty of space and an appropriate speed- if you startle me, I’m going to yell at you for not ringing a bell to let me know you were there. Note that the worst kind of canal towpath cyclist is the one who slows to a crawl and creeps behind me for minutes sometimes unnoticed, biding their time for a passing spot with lots of space. Just ring the frigging bell and I will stand out of your way for the 3 seconds it takes you to get by!
stevage 6mo ago
>My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. The culture around this varies a lot. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Virtually all bike paths are "shared", and many have signs telling you to ring your bell when approaching pedestrians - you're not telling them to move out of the way, you're telling them that you're there. In practice, I tend to use one ding to mean "I'm here" and multiple dings to mean "you're on the wrong side of the path and need to move". But in no situation do I rely on a bike bell to avoid an accident.
- Waterluvian 6mo ago
  I've always wanted two horns in my car: one that toots with a smile and a tip of the hat, and one that heralds your pending demise. It sounds like Australia cycle bell culture does that with short vs. long bell ding-a-lings. Which is kind of how it has worked with cars, except I find that more and more cars have a style of horn that's hard to control with the necessary precision. Maybe this is Canadian culture but I get very anxious that my horn will honk for a millisecond too long and the poor victim will think I'm angry at them.
  - skeeter2020 6mo ago
    go somewhere appropriate and do a little practice with the friendly multi-tap vs. the two-hand push! adding on a wave helps too; I wish more drivers waved...
    - Waterluvian 6mo ago
      I hate how many cars I see these days with windows so tinted that eye contact and waves are impossible. It feels dangerous to be unable to see the driver through their side window (eg. 4-way stop eye contact on who goes)
      - 6mo ago
haritha-j 6mo ago
Its a shared path yes but by two sets of people going at two very different speeds, so I don't feel particularly guilty about the bell, though I do try to avoid it if possible.
youknownothing 6mo ago
Thank you, I'm a cyclist too and I always try to respect pedestrians' space, and it really pisses me off when people don't. In many cities cycling on pavement is not allowed, yet some cyclists do it... which I'd be fine with, provided they understand that they're doing something they're not supposed to be doing and that they have no priority. But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them, I literally want to throw a stick in their wheels.
- KomoD 6mo ago
  > But when they're invading pedestrian space like that AND ring the bell as if people were supposed to be making way for them Honestly, I prefer that over those damn electric scooters. Most people who ride them are complete morons. They don't pay attention, ride into traffic, go at high speeds and don't care about anyone except themselves. I’ve even been hit by one.
  - youknownothing 6mo ago
    YES! I get the point of mobility and all that but I wish someone would give a ticket to some of those a-holes. Honestly, town halls have been looking the other way for far too long on this matter.
calyth2018 6mo ago
https://www.ontario.ca/page/bicycle-safety https://www.ontario.ca/page/bicycle-safety We are required to have a bell in Ontario. Ontario, at the minimum, asks us to ring a bell, or verbally communicate, when we are passing people. I've lost count of the amount of people walking abreast taking both sides of a shared path. I've lost count of the amount of times I've rang a bell in vain to inform them of intent to pass. I've lost count of the amount of times I've tried verbally communicate in vain, to inform of intent to pass. And then these path users, completely oblivious of what's going on, act like I'm the villain when I do pass them despite doing what is required of me. Some even had holler back saying that I should have ran a bell, or tell them. If one's using a shared path, don't use headphones that completely block outside sound. If one wants to meditate, then get off the shared path.

ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago

I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake. My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out something like "can I get past, please?" or if an immediate response is required (e.g. ped blindly stepping into the road ahead of me) then yelling "Oi!" can really surprise them and make them notice you. I'm also a fan of using "Beep, beep" if a ped is on cycle infrastructure (active travel infrastructure is probably a better term) and I want to pretend that I'm an impatient driver. I think the human voice is far superior to a bell as you can tailor the message for the situation and you don't have to move a hand away from the brakes to do so. (Using your voice is also a very good idea when approaching a horse and rider - horses know about humans and don't get freaked out if you call ahead "Morning!" or something cheery and appropriate).

lxgr 6mo ago
On my bike commute route, I'd lose my voice before the first meeting of the day if I had to use only my voice.
leoedin 6mo ago
I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake. The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.

lxgr 6mo ago

> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? They absolutely do, for indirect reasons: > Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic. With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if they still haven't noticed the oncoming bike. If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money (especially for bike delivery workers, but I also hate having to sharply decelerate for people glued to their screen or otherwise completely unaware of their surroundings even if I'm not in a rush), so you can take a guess as to whether "just reducing your speed" is practicable.

ndsipa_pomu 6mo ago
I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario. Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path. The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.
- lxgr 6mo ago
  To be clear, I am still reducing my speed if I don't get positive confirmation that I've been noticed or if there's not enough time for a reaction to even happen. My bell just gives me the significant improvement of possibly getting a reaction from the pedestrian long before I need to start braking. However, not everybody does cycle like that. And while legally and ethically dubious, the bell still helps in that case as well.

shermozle 6mo ago

A car company wanting to divert attention away from the carnage cars cause. Seems a bit suspicious no?

croemer 6mo ago
In Skoda's defense, it has a long tradition of making bicycles as well
tokai 6mo ago
Skoda is a huge sponsor of professionel cycling.
Theodores 6mo ago
In the UK, an important market for VW group, there are two types of bicycle, one for the proletariat and the other for the bourgeoisie. Due to the k-shaped economy, the proletariat bicycle died a long time ago, to evolve into the 'Lime bike' in places such as London. In the past, companies such as Raleigh provided excellent proletariat bicycles, and the working man could afford them for his kids and himself. Of course, he would prefer a car, because cars are high status whereas a steel/aluminium bicycle with straight bars is not. The bourgeoisie bicycle is a relatively recent phenomenon, and anything totally impractical and made of carbon fibre qualifies as bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie bicycle is also too expensive to lock up in town, plus you need all the clobber to go with it (lycra). Every bourgeoisie bicycle is owned by a car dependent person. They don't begin their ride at their front door, and their journeys are not useful or with purpose beyond cycling. Their bicycles get strapped onto the back of their car, or placed in the trunk, with wheels removed. These people don't need locks for their bicycles as they have a two tonne steel box to secure their bicycle in. You also get things like power-meters with these bikes, plus the owner has to wear a special polystyrene hat, at the insistence of their mother. Skoda are selling to those people that spend £5K+ on their toy carbon fibre bicycle. They know the realities of car dependency.
- pandaman 6mo ago
  Why would somebody transport a bike on car to London and ride on the streets crowded with pedestrians? And attach a massive bell to a carbon bike to facilitate that? The video shows that they have given these to delivery riders, which seems to be the target audience for a device like that. Seeing that this story is going viral everywhere it appears to be a quite a successful PR campaign. I doubt it's a real product though now I imagine similar devices will appear on Alibaba and Amazon.

i_am_proteus 6mo ago

Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette: Passing a single pedestrian or runner on a quiet day: no bell, coasting for a short bit with a loud free hub (the rotating ratchet element on the rear wheel) alerts the pedestrian to my presence. Passing a runner: normal ring from a distance so they have knowledge that the bicycle is passing Passing a cyclist: one loud ring from a distance Passing a pedestrian walking a dog: two loud rings, one far, one close, so that the pedestrian is aware of the approaching bicycle and he can prevent his dog from running at me/colliding. Many dogs do seem to enjoy a bicycle chase. Antisocial pedestrians (i.e., walking side-by-side such as to be blocking the path in both directions, preventing the bicyclist from passing): several loud rings of the bell until the antisocial activity has abated. Announcements in my local tongue (not English) that they impede the flow of traffic.

0x3f 6mo ago
Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.
noio 6mo ago
I wonder if you are German? Spending some time in Germany from Holland I notice there is a significant difference in cycling etiquette :) Especially regarding “passing a cyclist” which also touches on the essential difficulty with having only one “ring” sound. Always when Germans pass me on the bike and they ring I get slightly annoyed because I interpret it as a “get out of the way” ring, and I feel like there is enough space. But perhaps it’s just the cautious “don’t do anything unexpected” ring. A Dutch person would rarely ring at another cyclist in the former way. But they also might be less safety focused while cycling (see also: helmet usage). Or we have safer infrastructure already. On a road bike, however, I too ring at pedestrians “preemptively”. For sure GPs remark of “if you need to ring you’re going too fast” applies here but that’s the essence of road cycling. Ironically I’m also annoyed when road cyclists ring at me for the same reason. Just shows the case for having 2 clearly different types of rings. (Also for cars to have a “thank you” horn, haha)

furyg3 6mo ago

I've been a cyclist in SF and in Amsterdam, both for many years. In SF I used my bell much more aggressively. It was mainly for cars, if I'm in or entering their blind spot and my spidey sense tells me they are considering an action that places me in danger. For example, we all know when driving when the car in front of us is thinking about merging, even before they indicate (often I feel like I know before they do). I also used it for pedestrians stepping out into the street who are maybe looking past me for oncoming cars but somehow don't see me, or when approaching 'blind' situations like a sharp corner, a driver pulling out of a driveway but there is a tree between us, delivery drivers stepping out from their truck, etc. I can't say how many accidents have been prevented (the person may have eventually looked and seen me), but I can say that my bell has triggered people to look and see me earlier than they were going to had I not rang it. In Amsterdam my bell is used much more sparingly. It's mostly for tourists stepping into (or considering stepping into) the bike lane. If they are already in the bike lane, I almost always prefer just to slow down a bit and dodge them, as ringing the bell often triggers a deer-caught-in-headlight moment or erratic behavior, which increases the chance of an accident or that I have to come to a full stop. The other situation is to express dissatisfaction at cars blocking bike lanes, cars/bikes not yielding, drivers blocking intersections, or other dangerous behavior. This isn't preventing an accident but I'd argue it is still important, as social control affects how often we make bad decisions. Outside the city I also use my bell to let other cyclists know I'm passing. So yeah, I'd say bells prevent accidents, but obviously not as well as good biking infrastructure, where pedestrians, bikes, and cars have clear separate spaces, and visibility of cyclists to drivers is high.

sandos 6mo ago

"Do horns and bells really prevent accidents?" If you are a sane person, absolutely not!! You _try_ the bell, if people react, then you go. Many times it just confuses people or people ignore it. If you are a high-speed maniac and _rely_ on the bell to clear a path for you... then yeah. But you are then also likely to take great risks in general and will probably be in other accidents...

deleted 6mo ago

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BrtByte 6mo ago

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michael1999 6mo ago

There are a lot of runners on mixed use paths wearing headphones these days. They are an absolute danger to overtaking bikes. A bell they would hear would be useful.

PowerElectronix 6mo ago
To me, in a path with no priority to the bike, the only danger are cyclist who think they have priority and can overtake people at speed. Being able to get the attention of runners improves the situation, reducing the speed while circulating on a mixed path solves it completely. If you wanna go fast get on a bike lane or the road.
- pandaman 6mo ago
  I don't quite follow, how slowing makes the problem of a runner jumping into the side of your bike go away? If anything it makes it more likely he or she will knock you off the bike since a slower moving bike is less stable and also increases the time you are in the danger zone next to a runner. And runners do jump between the lanes for no apparent reason.
throw83940449 6mo ago
Pedestrians are not danger, they are victims! Cyclist should slow down, while performing dangerous overtaking, and not crash into them! Same rules like with cars!
falsemyrmidon 6mo ago
I suppose you feel similarly about the dangers bikes pose to cars?
- faefox 6mo ago
  Running with ANC headphones on is like driving with your eyes closed. Safety is a two-way street and it's everyone's responsibility to maintain a basic level of situational awareness.
6mo ago

serial_dev 6mo ago

It's not only about preventing accidents (but I do believe it prevents some to attempt answering your question). It's also about signaling to someone that they might be doing something wrong or they might not be paying attention. For pedestrians it takes significantly less time and distance to stop, for cars, trams, and bicycles, it takes longer. It happens all the time that pedestrians don't know the customs of a country, they don't recognize bike lines... in that case the cyclists do not need to pump the breaks anytime a clueless tourist gets in front of them... they can ring the bell, signaling: "yo, it's not how we do it here, please watch out, I'm coming full speed and you are in the wrong, so please look up from your phone and stop right there". I also had the luck to meet some people thinking they can be on their phone while cycling, drifting into my lane, etc... In that case, a bell is also adequate "hey, please stop writing a text message while you are on your bike blazing through the city, you are driving as if you were drunk, pay attention please and stop multitasking (you moron)" If nothing works to change their behavior, of course I'll try my best and hit the brakes safely, but I'd prefer they learned how to move around in the city safely.

literalAardvark 6mo ago
My experiences on a motorcycle tell me that if you feel the need to honk you should be focusing on braking and evasive maneuvers instead. The choice between between teaching some midwit the law and going home in one piece seems crystal clear to me. In a couple of years of riding I think the horn would have very slightly helped maybe... once or twice. If the other guy would have heard it at all which is doubtful.
- kzrdude 6mo ago
  As someone who cycles daily, the bell is less aggressive than a car horn and it's a useful signaling tool about every other day. I need to signal that I'm approaching from behind pedestrians, especially if they are walking without any safe gaps for me to pass them through.
SoftTalker 6mo ago
Phones? I've seen cyclists using laptops. Some of the most oblivious and entitled vehicle operators on the road.

mikkupikku 6mo ago

They certainly can, yes. Many crashes can be avoided if both parties slam on the brakes or swerve, not not quite if only one does. Also they're useful in parking lots when some dumbass is about to back right into you.

prmoustache 6mo ago

> In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient I have seen a small kid jump from his father's scooter just when I was overtaking them and they decided to stop because he had seen his grandpa or whoever was that old guy on the other side of the bike lane. His father managed to stop him by grabbing his sweater because I had rung my bell a few seconds before he decided to stop but the kid ended up inches from my bicycle. It was at very low speed, almost walking speed yet hitting a bicycle handlebars head first because you turn around without looking still hurts even if the bicycle his stopped.

0x3f 6mo ago
If I'm driving and I see a young kid like this I always move out away from the curb if possible. So even if they dart out or fall into the road it's not a problem. Actually, same if I'm passing a bunch of parked cars and there is room, since kids can be stupid and emerge from between them. If someone truly runs into when you're stationary, I'm not sure anyone really has a problem with you in that scenario.
- prmoustache 6mo ago
  I don't want people to get hurts, regardless if it is my fault or not. Our world/societes could do with more empathy even if some people do errors. For the same reason I try to be courteous and try to always say "hello, thank you, have a nice day" even if sometimes I am fuming inside that someone cut my path and I had priority from a legal point of view. I also quietly slow down and give ample distance to someone who cross the street when I am driving even when it is a stupid decision from their part and others would have honked or shouted insults. I don't think our life and interactions should always be a case of us vs them.

jmull 6mo ago

You're right, it's certainly not the primary way to prevent accidents. But it helps at the edges, which seems worthwhile. That's assuming the bells aren't abused too badly, which is a mixed bag, but mostly true.

kfarr 6mo ago

Bells don’t work on cars, I’ve been using this in SF and motorists respond very quickly https://loudbicycle.com/ https://loudbicycle.com/

skeeter2020 6mo ago

horns & bells are for pedestrians IME, not cars. >> properly segregated infrastructure for each class of vehicle. I ride a lot in traffic and the problem with segregated infrastructure (i.e. bike lanes) is the interfaces and constriction. Pedestrians step off the sidewalk or out of cars into constrained bike lanes all the time and there's no where to go; cars turn across bike lanes with the same problem. You can't always do it, but if you can eliminate the speed differential I believe riding in traffic is much safer than a bike lane, at least until you get enough bike volume to keep drivers aware. THat's hard to do in most of NA or year round.

left-struck 6mo ago

In cars a horn has saved me a few times where someone was backing up or turning into me not realising I was there. In those situations my car was stationary so there was nothing else I could do as quickly as pressing the horn