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I'm not saying divination isn't a thing, I'm saying there are examples of use of chance where it doesn't seem like divination. Athenians selected through sorti

I'm not saying divination isn't a thing, I'm saying there are examples of use of chance where it doesn't seem like divination. Athenians selected through sortition didn't seem to act much like they believed they were chosen by the gods, and they defended their institutions mainly as wisdom, not as revelation. And the apostles, being Jews, had a big taboo about using chance to determine God's will, but apparently not against using chance to fill vacancies.

kstenerud 6mo ago
That's actually the opposite of the historical evidence. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2010%3A20-21&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2010... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2016%3A33&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2016%3... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2016%3A8-10&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2016%...
- vintermann 6mo ago
  There are bible passages suggesting the outcome of lots is God's will, and there are passages condemning divination. You can find them from the same links you posted above. But at the time of the apostles, it was a no-no to use chance to figure out God's will. Please don't just shake links out of your sleeve, and talk to me instead. Do you think the Athenians acted like they were chosen by the gods when their number came up? Don't you see a difference between the situations where chance could clearly have been used simply as a mechanism for fairness / avoiding a biased choice, and things like reading the movement of the birds or interpreting the shape of molten lead thrown into water? Even in things like the goat choice in the bible you link above, I think it may be more about fairness than divination. Because as far as I know, the priests actually got to eat the sacrificial goat, but not the scapegoat they chased into the wild. So was it really about divining which goat God hated more, or was it maybe about "don't cheat by keeping the juicy goat for yourselves and chasing away the mangy one!"?

kstenerud 6mo ago

That's actually the opposite of the historical evidence. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2010%3A20-21&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2010... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2016%3A33&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2016%3... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2016%3A8-10&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2016%...

vintermann 6mo ago
There are bible passages suggesting the outcome of lots is God's will, and there are passages condemning divination. You can find them from the same links you posted above. But at the time of the apostles, it was a no-no to use chance to figure out God's will. Please don't just shake links out of your sleeve, and talk to me instead. Do you think the Athenians acted like they were chosen by the gods when their number came up? Don't you see a difference between the situations where chance could clearly have been used simply as a mechanism for fairness / avoiding a biased choice, and things like reading the movement of the birds or interpreting the shape of molten lead thrown into water? Even in things like the goat choice in the bible you link above, I think it may be more about fairness than divination. Because as far as I know, the priests actually got to eat the sacrificial goat, but not the scapegoat they chased into the wild. So was it really about divining which goat God hated more, or was it maybe about "don't cheat by keeping the juicy goat for yourselves and chasing away the mangy one!"?