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What option is there for israel.
by helo4362 6mo ago
What option is there for israel.
- andy_ppp 6mo agoFair. Clearly they need the land back GOD gave them 3000 years ago.
- helo4362 6mo agoI mean realistically what peaceful propsals are there. Every neighbour country is threating what else they can do.
- nielsbot 6mo agoThe best plan is one democratic state from the river to the sea for all peoples governed by the Israel government. > Every neighbour country is threating what else they can do. See above. When Israel finally stops trying to be a Jewish supremacist state things can finally start getting better.
- Matl 6mo agoHas it ever entered your mind that maybe it is actually Israel that is threatening every other country?
- dgxyz 6mo agoIsrael remembers the Six-Day War...
- lostlogin 6mo agoDoes that give a perpetual licence to kill, or do we try something productive at some point?
- dgxyz 6mo agoThe only productive solution is to get rid of all religious ideology out there (both sides). Good luck.
- Matl 6mo agoThe 'both sides' thing when one side is occupying the other is pathetic. There's only one side that needs to stop the occupation immediately, the Israeli one. We can go from there.
- dgxyz 6mo agoYeah remember when they left Gaza in 2005. What happened then?
- lostlogin 6mo agoThey levelled it, tens of thousands killed.
- Matl 6mo ago'left' as in imposed a blockade on it, you mean?
- GordonS 6mo agoThis is preposterous revisionism - Israel didn't just leave Gaza alone, they turned it into an open air concentration camp, controlling everything going in and out. And they were utter bastards about it too, literally counting calories going into Gaza, and classing just about anything as "dual use" so not allowed (e.g. tent poles could be used to hit someone). Israel has never stopped being the aggressor. Maybe if they stopped occupying, stealing, raping, murdering and massacring, the entire region might be more peaceful. Not likely for a genocidal, apartheid state filled with religious supremacist fanatics though.
- Matl 6mo agoEveryone remembers The Nakba. Or the Suez Crisis And?
- dgxyz 6mo agoNakba - Entirely the result of Ottoman foreign policy, WW1, WW2, League of Nations being a total fuck up. Suez Crisis - Egypt being dicks Six Day War - attacked from all sides. Bit of a contrast, no?
- Matl 6mo agoTranslation: Israel is always the victim, even if the whole world outside it sees it as the aggressor. I guess illegal settlement in the West Bank is the result of a Nintendo console not being launched the same day in Israel as in Japan? Or any other made up thing that shifts the blame from Israel to a 3rd party?
- kergonath 6mo agoThe war started by Israel, ostensibly as a retaliation for a dispute about a bit of water, which Israel used as a pretext to invade the West Bank? What about it?
- zelphirkalt 6mo agoAs a first step they could give back some of their illegal settlements. Then over time give back more, until they are back in UN recognized borders. That would be a start. They could also start to persecute violent mobs that chased people out of their own homes and the people in the military covering them. They could also release unjustifiably imprisoned people. You know, things that basic human decency would demand of them.
- ArnoVW 6mo agoWell if one would get theological about it, I do believe they were given the land and then expelled by god. The Bible is quite explicit on that point. I don’t remember seeing the memo that god gave “back” the land, so logically speaking they are acting against the will of god.
- King-Aaron 6mo agoMaybe not systematically murdering civilians and stealing their land and homes every day might be a start. Baby steps.
- dgxyz 6mo agohttps://www.hamas-massacre.net https://www.hamas-massacre.net
- close04 6mo agoWe call Hamas "terrorists" for far less than Israel's actions.
- dgxyz 6mo ago[flagged]
- close04 6mo agoFor sure my "genocide supporting" brain center took critical damage and is not operational.
- dgxyz 6mo agoAs we're talking absolutes clearly, was the Nova music festival massacre justified resistance?
- throwaw12 6mo agono massacre is justified, but can you remind us how and where did Hamas get helicopters and tanks and all of a sudden all cars were smashed? maybe Hannibal directive handed them over their tanks
- close04 6mo ago> was the Nova music festival massacre justified resistance Intentionally killing civilians is never justified. But this still makes Palestine/Hamas the (much) smaller genocidal terrorist in this conflict. Free people don't need freedom fighters ;). Now, I have no horse in this race, I am not related to any of the peoples involved, and live far away. I'm just the voice that finds genocide wrong. You on the other hand look like you're happily riding the terrorist, genocidal horse. I don't expect anything from you in terms of quality debate.
- patates 6mo agoStop the immortality project and stop the massive suffering happening right now. People should really read "The Denial of Death".
- blurbleblurble 6mo agoPlease share more
- patates 6mo agoPasting from Wikipedia: > Becker argues that a basic duality in human life exists between the physical world of objects and biology, and a symbolic world of human meaning. Thus, since humanity has a dualistic nature consisting of a physical self and a symbolic self, we are able to transcend the dilemma of mortality by focusing our attention mainly on our symbolic selves, i.e. our culturally based self esteem, which Becker calls "heroism": a "defiant creation of meaning" expressing "the myth of the significance of human life" as compared to other animals. This counters the personal insignificance and finitude that death represents in the human mind. > Such symbolic self-focus takes the form of an individual's "causa sui project", (sometimes called an "immortality project", or a "heroism project"). A person's "causa sui project" acts as their immortality vessel, whereby they subscribe to a particular set of culturally-created meanings and through them gain personal significance beyond that afforded to other mortal animals. This enables the individual to imagine at least some vestige of those meanings continuing beyond their own life-span; thus avoiding the complete "self-negation" we perceive when other biological creatures die in nature. You can find big similarities such as the promised land as the immortality vessel, heroism as a response to historical trauma and the ongoing attacks on their sovereignty, and the immortality project would be the nation-state. Becker goes on to categorize all of this similar to a mental illness. You can read the wikipedia page here, I find it very helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death TL;DR: If you look through Becker's lens, you start to realize how stupid such wars and expansionist ideals seem. People should focus on what exists now and stop chasing projects that'd span beyond their lifetimes while making life today worse.
- nielsbot 6mo agoRe-integration. One democratic state "from the river to the sea". And leave the neighboring states alone.
- dgxyz 6mo agoThis comment is exactly why there is no hope out there. Literally zero understanding of middle-Eastern geopolitics other than trite slogans. Come on. Do you think everyone is going to suddenly start holding hands and singing kumbaya? Or more realistically, like nearly every other surrounding state it'll be the elimination and exodus of Jews and Israelis?
- lostlogin 6mo agoCarpet bombing, artillery and gunfire hasn’t brought peace, but maybe the next salvo will, right?
- dgxyz 6mo agoBallistic rockets and massacring people at music festivals don't either. There's no moral high ground here so don't even pretend there is one.
- bongripper 6mo ago[dead]
- close04 6mo agoThat's a crazy way to defend an ongoing genocide. The scale is so different that the only way to miss it is willful bad faith. How long and how far do you go with that justification? Does it work the other way too? Are "their" actions justified forever because of something wrong that was done to them? Can anyone in the world do to you anything and everything forever if they were ever wronged by someone born in the same general geographic area as you? Whenever you find yourself defending any genocide, under any excuse, defending the killing of innocent children because some other guys from the same general area also killed people, you are the bigger problem and no amount of fresh accounts justifying it makes you better.
- rcbdev 6mo agoThe only endgame I see for the region is sadly the complete and utter annihilation of all civilizations there, possibly through nuclear means. I do not say this lightly and I say it with a deep sadness in my heart for the people of the middle east, but also with the sober realization that this is the only end of the path that is currently walked.
- littlestymaar 6mo agoThere's a much less grim end, probably coming at short term: If the US stop giving unconditional blank check support to Israel, then the nuisance power of the Jewish supremacists there disappears overnight. The US popular support for Israel is now at an all time low, and the recent war may be the straw that breaks the Camel's back. All that's needed to stabilize the region is some amount of pushback to the destabilizing country here. Iran have been a destabilizing force for the past decade, but since 2023 Israel is by far the biggest threat to the region, and it's mostly due to Netanyahu's political survival relying on the state of perpetual war he's put the country in. Should the US put even a modicum amount of pressure to Israel (or even just declare they wouldn't support them should the EU put economic sanctions on Israel), then the current cabinet collapse, Netanyahu ends up in prison for corruption and the middle east is stable for a decade. All of this madness is happening because the US enables a madman to escape his own judicial system through foreign wars.
- frm88 6mo agoAll of this madness is happening because the US enables a madman to escape his own judicial system through foreign wars. All of this madness is happening because the US enables two+ madmen to escape their own judicial system through foreign wars. Fixed it.
- littlestymaar 6mo agoIn fairness, it's the Biden administration who gave Netanyahu the blank check first. Having another mad man at the head of the US makes the issue worse, but even impeaching him wouldn't solve the problem on its own.
- surgical_fire 6mo agoPerhaps not be a genocidaire apartheid state?
- amunozo 6mo agoIt's so sad to see this ridiculous argument every time. Israel is the aggressor, the murder and the main threat to the region's peace, not the victim. This, of course, does not mean that Iran is not another threat, but its actions seem like nothing compared to what Israel is doing.