7 ms·

> “It’s an incredibly exciting finding, because for so long, the intellectual aspects of native Native American cultures have really been sidelined, if not cons

> “It’s an incredibly exciting finding, because for so long, the intellectual aspects of native Native American cultures have really been sidelined, if not consciously suppressed by colonial powers,” Wiener said. Really? That's what this is motivated by? Plain old boring science and more objective documentation of artifacts aren't good enough reasons? How is anything being suppressed if there are a ton of random stories constantly being published about Native Americans apparently being secret geniuses with magical powers? This is borderline racist. NBC has really gone down the shitter. > Madden left legal practice in 2017 and started independent research on the Olmec civilization, an early Mesoamerican population, before he began a master’s program in archaeology — his “original love” — in 2022. At least they're honest about who they're interviewing and leave it up to the reader to decide credibility?

ramon156 6mo ago
[flagged]
- bluGill 6mo ago
  I'm offended anytime any group is in the news and the report goes from facts to speculation on what that must mean that is obviously rooted in some modern stereotype. Natives commonly get this treatment, but there are plenty of other groups it happens to as well.
- davebren 6mo ago
  >Or do you feel personally offended when Native Americans are in the news? Why do you intentionally try not to understand the point someone makes and then come up with your own negative fantasy about them?
HK-NC 6mo ago
Im not American, so my knowledge on the natives, or Indians as I'm told they prefer to call themselves, was based on media made by these colonial powers. I started reading into the subject recently and I find that the only thing the colonial powers seem to miss out is the brutal treatment of women, the gang rapes and the torture. Interestingly enough, the powers that be in New York that never had dealings with the Indians face to face had the same picture of peace loving land hippies in mind when telling southerners how to negotiate with them. The comanche specifically were some of the most impressive and frightening people I've ever read about.
- bluGill 6mo ago
  The first problem with what you know: there were many different tribes and they didn't share common culture. They did have some trade, but there was no unified culture. Second problem: diseases (smallpox is the best known) spread much faster than the Europeans and so most of what we they could see was influenced by large numbers of dead people in the previous generation that wasn't recovered from. It is a lot easier to be peaceful with your neighbors when there are no population pressures (that is everyone can eat enough on the land you have). Likewise it is easier to give away "stuff" when you have a lot of extras from older generations that nobody needs. Third, guns and horses allowed for ways to life that were not possible before. The great nomadic horse tribes - that was clearly observed, but the way of life depends on things the Europeans brought not long before. It is really hard to know what the culture was like before the horse arrived. There is reason to suspect that those great nomadic tribes where heading to a population collapse of the bison herds because the horse and guns enabled over hunting (but of course Europeans arrived before that could happen, and did their own number on the herds).
Pay08 6mo ago
This is becoming more and more common. I recently read an article about the male genetic material's influence on pregnancy complications and it included a similar blurb about women's rights and colonialism (don't ask me how that last one is related). Like, just state the findings and your conclusions from them. No need to attempt to save the world.
- throwawaypath 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- throwawaypath 6mo ago
  [flagged]
- throwawaypath 6mo ago
  >it included a similar blurb about women's rights and colonialism Religious recitations, like Muslims repeating the takbir.
mbauman 6mo ago
That's quite amusing; you don't see the connection between "magical powers" and sidelining real intellectual achievements? Also, Madden is not a master's student anymore. He's a 62 year old doctoral candidate and the lead author on this study.
- sublinear 6mo ago
  I do see the connection. That was my point. We went from overt racism (by the oppressors alleged by NBC) to covert racism (by NBC themselves). We could have done without the virtue signaling. I also say "alleged" because in most cases those oppressors are the other half of the family tree for the people we have alive today we're calling some particular outgroup. News organizations like NBC used to treat these topics with more care to avoid "othering" and full awareness that modern subjects are a mixed people with a ton of nuance. This is the USA, for crying out loud. Now if you really want your "woosh", let's consider the stereotype of native americans owning casinos, and this article is about their ancient dice. :-)
  - mbauman 6mo ago
    I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that your "ton of random stories constantly being published about Native Americans apparently being secret geniuses with magical powers" are _themselves_ evidence of exactly the sort of unserious reporting that the researcher (NOT NBC) claims; they sideline and obscure the realities of the intellectual aspects.
    - sublinear 6mo ago
      I don't know if you're aware how editors choose what and how to publish, or how much of the journalist's writing gets thrown out. NBC decided what to assign to the journalist, decided the goals the editor should have in mind, approved the editor's decisions, and ultimately let it publish. When they push these stories and present them this way, the archaeologist is by far the least to blame even if I disagree with their words. I'm already aware of the crazy reasons people do the work they love. It's just how the world goes 'round. NBC could have left that crap out along with the other stuff they cut. I'm very confident the interview was much longer. Neither the interviewees nor journalists have any idea how the story will be spun. Some of these interviews drag on for so long it's practically interrogation tactics to see what shakes out. It is indeed NBC's decision to focus on the "dice" out of all the artifacts shown. It is NBC's decision to choose the most sensational quotes to run with. It is NBC's decision to go looking for the most colorful people to interview and tap them whenever they want to push a theme.

ramon156 6mo ago

[flagged]

bluGill 6mo ago
I'm offended anytime any group is in the news and the report goes from facts to speculation on what that must mean that is obviously rooted in some modern stereotype. Natives commonly get this treatment, but there are plenty of other groups it happens to as well.
davebren 6mo ago
>Or do you feel personally offended when Native Americans are in the news? Why do you intentionally try not to understand the point someone makes and then come up with your own negative fantasy about them?

HK-NC 6mo ago

Im not American, so my knowledge on the natives, or Indians as I'm told they prefer to call themselves, was based on media made by these colonial powers. I started reading into the subject recently and I find that the only thing the colonial powers seem to miss out is the brutal treatment of women, the gang rapes and the torture. Interestingly enough, the powers that be in New York that never had dealings with the Indians face to face had the same picture of peace loving land hippies in mind when telling southerners how to negotiate with them. The comanche specifically were some of the most impressive and frightening people I've ever read about.

bluGill 6mo ago
The first problem with what you know: there were many different tribes and they didn't share common culture. They did have some trade, but there was no unified culture. Second problem: diseases (smallpox is the best known) spread much faster than the Europeans and so most of what we they could see was influenced by large numbers of dead people in the previous generation that wasn't recovered from. It is a lot easier to be peaceful with your neighbors when there are no population pressures (that is everyone can eat enough on the land you have). Likewise it is easier to give away "stuff" when you have a lot of extras from older generations that nobody needs. Third, guns and horses allowed for ways to life that were not possible before. The great nomadic horse tribes - that was clearly observed, but the way of life depends on things the Europeans brought not long before. It is really hard to know what the culture was like before the horse arrived. There is reason to suspect that those great nomadic tribes where heading to a population collapse of the bison herds because the horse and guns enabled over hunting (but of course Europeans arrived before that could happen, and did their own number on the herds).

Pay08 6mo ago

This is becoming more and more common. I recently read an article about the male genetic material's influence on pregnancy complications and it included a similar blurb about women's rights and colonialism (don't ask me how that last one is related). Like, just state the findings and your conclusions from them. No need to attempt to save the world.

throwawaypath 6mo ago
[flagged]
throwawaypath 6mo ago
[flagged]
throwawaypath 6mo ago
>it included a similar blurb about women's rights and colonialism Religious recitations, like Muslims repeating the takbir.

mbauman 6mo ago

That's quite amusing; you don't see the connection between "magical powers" and sidelining real intellectual achievements? Also, Madden is not a master's student anymore. He's a 62 year old doctoral candidate and the lead author on this study.

sublinear 6mo ago
I do see the connection. That was my point. We went from overt racism (by the oppressors alleged by NBC) to covert racism (by NBC themselves). We could have done without the virtue signaling. I also say "alleged" because in most cases those oppressors are the other half of the family tree for the people we have alive today we're calling some particular outgroup. News organizations like NBC used to treat these topics with more care to avoid "othering" and full awareness that modern subjects are a mixed people with a ton of nuance. This is the USA, for crying out loud. Now if you really want your "woosh", let's consider the stereotype of native americans owning casinos, and this article is about their ancient dice. :-)
- mbauman 6mo ago
  I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that your "ton of random stories constantly being published about Native Americans apparently being secret geniuses with magical powers" are _themselves_ evidence of exactly the sort of unserious reporting that the researcher (NOT NBC) claims; they sideline and obscure the realities of the intellectual aspects.
  - sublinear 6mo ago
    I don't know if you're aware how editors choose what and how to publish, or how much of the journalist's writing gets thrown out. NBC decided what to assign to the journalist, decided the goals the editor should have in mind, approved the editor's decisions, and ultimately let it publish. When they push these stories and present them this way, the archaeologist is by far the least to blame even if I disagree with their words. I'm already aware of the crazy reasons people do the work they love. It's just how the world goes 'round. NBC could have left that crap out along with the other stuff they cut. I'm very confident the interview was much longer. Neither the interviewees nor journalists have any idea how the story will be spun. Some of these interviews drag on for so long it's practically interrogation tactics to see what shakes out. It is indeed NBC's decision to focus on the "dice" out of all the artifacts shown. It is NBC's decision to choose the most sensational quotes to run with. It is NBC's decision to go looking for the most colorful people to interview and tap them whenever they want to push a theme.