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It's not just the 10,000 hours, it's learning it very young. I am an ex-professional ballet dancer, and one of the things I always find interesting is that any

It's not just the 10,000 hours, it's learning it very young. I am an ex-professional ballet dancer, and one of the things I always find interesting is that any experienced ballet dancer can instantly tell who trained as a child and who didn't solely by how they stand (literally not even moving) at the barre. But the thing is, children with only a few years of training under their belt will often show this good form, while I have literally never seen someone who started as an adult, even dedicated adults who take class 4-5 times a week, get rid of that "I started as an adult" posture. As an example, I was actually quite impressed at how Natalie Portman really managed to "look the part" in her role as a ballerina in Black Swan. Still, she wasn't fooling anyone with training - even with just a simple port de bras (raising of an arm), you could easily tell she wasn't a dancer.

WalterBright 7mo ago
I'm not in the least surprised by that. Bones in children are softer and more malleable, they don't harden up until 16 or so. (That's why young athletes should stick to more reps and lighter weights until 16.) I've tried emulating those movements, and just look like Bullwinkle.
tayo42 7mo ago
funny, surfing is like this too
emsixteen 7mo ago
My partner's also a dance, and this is what's always come across from her, too - that you can tell a dancer from a glance in an instant, even on the street. I have a little bit of an eye for it but only by virtue of being around that environment. (also: ex-pro ballet to HN? Can't imagine there's much crossover in that Venn!)
- hn_throwaway_99 7mo ago
  > ex-pro ballet to HN? Can't imagine there's much crossover in that Venn! It's perhaps not super common, but not as rare as you might think. Only a teeny tiny minority of ballet dancers have full careers, meaning they make it to the level of principal (the highest rank in a ballet company) and then retire in their 40s, usually to go on to another career in dance like teaching. Many more are like me, where we trained intensively as children, then made it into a company but saw that there'd be a ceiling on our advancement (meaning we'd only make it to corps de ballet or soloist level based on our ability), so left after a few years to do something else. Then there are the fascinating outliers like Robert Wallace, who was a dancer with ABT and a principal at Boston Ballet (so the pinnacle of the career), then went to Yale at 32, graduated summa cum laude in economics, and now is CEO of Stanford Management Company where he runs Stanford's $50 billion endowment.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 7mo ago
> Natalie Portman...you could easily tell she wasn't a dancer. Which is interesting, because from what I can tell she studied ballet from a young age, which potentially puts a hole in your theory. Unless you're only taking about professional dancers who started young versus professional dancers who started late, rather than any (i.e. non-professional) dancer.
- hn_throwaway_99 7mo ago
  Natalie Portman "took ballet as a kid", which is probably similar to like 50% of women in the US. From what I found online, it says "she took ballet from age 4 to 12", but there is a collosal difference between someone who engaged in "professional track" training and someone who engaged it as an after-school hobby. The ballet world even has a name for small neighborhood dance schools, a "Dolly Dinkle" school (it's a little bit of a knock, but not much, as most professional dancers started at one of these places before moving on to professional training). But for contrast, take a look at the 12 year olds at the Vaganova Ballet Academy. At that point they've only been at the academy 2 or 3 years, and while they have some "child mannerisms" in their dancing, they all hold and carry themselves like professional dancers.
deleted 7mo ago
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harrall 7mo ago
I used to think this was true in skateboarding but eventually I found exceptions. 4-5 times / week is not a lot on its own. You need like 20-25 hours / week. That’s how many actual hours a lot of us kids were spending, at least skateboarding. If we take the 10,000 hour figure literally, at 20 hours/week, you get good in 9 years, which kind of fits when kids get good. Almost zero adults I know can (or are willing to) spend 20 hours/wk on a physical hobby. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn something new, but you gotta be a little strategic.

WalterBright 7mo ago

I'm not in the least surprised by that. Bones in children are softer and more malleable, they don't harden up until 16 or so. (That's why young athletes should stick to more reps and lighter weights until 16.) I've tried emulating those movements, and just look like Bullwinkle.

tayo42 7mo ago

funny, surfing is like this too

emsixteen 7mo ago

My partner's also a dance, and this is what's always come across from her, too - that you can tell a dancer from a glance in an instant, even on the street. I have a little bit of an eye for it but only by virtue of being around that environment. (also: ex-pro ballet to HN? Can't imagine there's much crossover in that Venn!)

hn_throwaway_99 7mo ago
> ex-pro ballet to HN? Can't imagine there's much crossover in that Venn! It's perhaps not super common, but not as rare as you might think. Only a teeny tiny minority of ballet dancers have full careers, meaning they make it to the level of principal (the highest rank in a ballet company) and then retire in their 40s, usually to go on to another career in dance like teaching. Many more are like me, where we trained intensively as children, then made it into a company but saw that there'd be a ceiling on our advancement (meaning we'd only make it to corps de ballet or soloist level based on our ability), so left after a few years to do something else. Then there are the fascinating outliers like Robert Wallace, who was a dancer with ABT and a principal at Boston Ballet (so the pinnacle of the career), then went to Yale at 32, graduated summa cum laude in economics, and now is CEO of Stanford Management Company where he runs Stanford's $50 billion endowment.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 7mo ago

> Natalie Portman...you could easily tell she wasn't a dancer. Which is interesting, because from what I can tell she studied ballet from a young age, which potentially puts a hole in your theory. Unless you're only taking about professional dancers who started young versus professional dancers who started late, rather than any (i.e. non-professional) dancer.

hn_throwaway_99 7mo ago
Natalie Portman "took ballet as a kid", which is probably similar to like 50% of women in the US. From what I found online, it says "she took ballet from age 4 to 12", but there is a collosal difference between someone who engaged in "professional track" training and someone who engaged it as an after-school hobby. The ballet world even has a name for small neighborhood dance schools, a "Dolly Dinkle" school (it's a little bit of a knock, but not much, as most professional dancers started at one of these places before moving on to professional training). But for contrast, take a look at the 12 year olds at the Vaganova Ballet Academy. At that point they've only been at the academy 2 or 3 years, and while they have some "child mannerisms" in their dancing, they all hold and carry themselves like professional dancers.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

harrall 7mo ago

I used to think this was true in skateboarding but eventually I found exceptions. 4-5 times / week is not a lot on its own. You need like 20-25 hours / week. That’s how many actual hours a lot of us kids were spending, at least skateboarding. If we take the 10,000 hour figure literally, at 20 hours/week, you get good in 9 years, which kind of fits when kids get good. Almost zero adults I know can (or are willing to) spend 20 hours/wk on a physical hobby. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn something new, but you gotta be a little strategic.