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Author - I don't think you learned the correct lessons here. The most important thing is that you weren't "ripped off" - you were taken advantage of. Ripped of

Author - I don't think you learned the correct lessons here. The most important thing is that you weren't "ripped off" - you were taken advantage of. Ripped off is when you buy a TV that's supposed to work and it doesn't. Or you just don't get one. You were taken advantage of - which requires your active consent. Nobody made you do all these things for them on faith. You could have left after a few days. You could have demanded payment up front. But you volunteered to continue down this awful path. I hope you learn to value your time, and yourself, higher than this in the future.

doctorhandshake 6mo ago
I’ve worked on these terms or similar ones on every job I’ve ever done, for 20 years. They’re the norm. How do I know? I’ve been in this industry for 20 years. I’ve been on both sides of freelance contracts in that time. I moderate a discord of 8000 of my peers. I speak at industry events. We compare notes. We all work ahead of payment, and honestly nothing about the fact that this was a rescue job was particularly out of the ordinary either. This is the case in which I wasn’t paid. If you’re suggesting we as a labor force attempt to change things en masse, it’s an interesting idea. If you’re suggesting I personally could have succeeded at getting payment up front in this case, you may be right, although I didn’t know how desperate they were until ~2.5 weeks into the run. If you’re suggesting I should demand payment in full before every job, you are suggesting I should win zero jobs. Edit to note: I took the contract’s enforceability on faith. That was not what I thought it was. Had I known the contract gets you jack shit in the way of justice, I’d have taken more seriously the possibility that these guys would rip me off, which they did.
- interstice 6mo ago
  The difference between armchair pricing advice (and the advice of literature on the subject) vs the actual experience of trying to action said advice has lead me to question my sanity more than once.
- komali2 6mo ago
  I agree with you on all points, but I'm surprised you come with that much experience but also faith that contracts are enforceable, especially when dealing with PRC clients. I understand you had a California based entity you were dealing with but even then, I've experienced first hand the worth of a contract in California very early in my career and it's the same as in the PRC: toilet paper. I guess maybe you've just been lucky to go this long without finding that out?
  - doctorhandshake 6mo ago
    I think you're prob right that I've been lucky? Also almost all my contracts are NY state. Also almost all my work comes word of mouth in what 10 years ago was still a small industry ... folks are less likely to rip you off when you know dozens of people in common.
dataflow 6mo ago
> The most important thing is that you weren't "ripped off" - you were taken advantage of. Ripped off is when you buy a TV that's supposed to work and it doesn't. Or you just don't get one. Pretty sure they used "ripped off" correctly: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rip-off https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rip-o...
Barbing 6mo ago
I want to talk about the semantics here, but I'm distracted: >You could have left after a few days. Veering towards victim blaming territory there. Also was the FAQ about progress payments added to the OP site after you commented earlier?
tecleandor 6mo ago
Well, they signed a contract saying they would pay a certain amount in exchange of certain work. They were supposed (and promised) to pay that amount, and when the time came, they didn't. I'd say that's a rip-off and very similar to "I was supposed to receive a TV on exchange for certain work, and what I got in the mail was a brick".

doctorhandshake 6mo ago

I’ve worked on these terms or similar ones on every job I’ve ever done, for 20 years. They’re the norm. How do I know? I’ve been in this industry for 20 years. I’ve been on both sides of freelance contracts in that time. I moderate a discord of 8000 of my peers. I speak at industry events. We compare notes. We all work ahead of payment, and honestly nothing about the fact that this was a rescue job was particularly out of the ordinary either. This is the case in which I wasn’t paid. If you’re suggesting we as a labor force attempt to change things en masse, it’s an interesting idea. If you’re suggesting I personally could have succeeded at getting payment up front in this case, you may be right, although I didn’t know how desperate they were until ~2.5 weeks into the run. If you’re suggesting I should demand payment in full before every job, you are suggesting I should win zero jobs. Edit to note: I took the contract’s enforceability on faith. That was not what I thought it was. Had I known the contract gets you jack shit in the way of justice, I’d have taken more seriously the possibility that these guys would rip me off, which they did.

interstice 6mo ago
The difference between armchair pricing advice (and the advice of literature on the subject) vs the actual experience of trying to action said advice has lead me to question my sanity more than once.
komali2 6mo ago
I agree with you on all points, but I'm surprised you come with that much experience but also faith that contracts are enforceable, especially when dealing with PRC clients. I understand you had a California based entity you were dealing with but even then, I've experienced first hand the worth of a contract in California very early in my career and it's the same as in the PRC: toilet paper. I guess maybe you've just been lucky to go this long without finding that out?
- doctorhandshake 6mo ago
  I think you're prob right that I've been lucky? Also almost all my contracts are NY state. Also almost all my work comes word of mouth in what 10 years ago was still a small industry ... folks are less likely to rip you off when you know dozens of people in common.

dataflow 6mo ago

> The most important thing is that you weren't "ripped off" - you were taken advantage of. Ripped off is when you buy a TV that's supposed to work and it doesn't. Or you just don't get one. Pretty sure they used "ripped off" correctly: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rip-off https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rip-o...

Barbing 6mo ago

I want to talk about the semantics here, but I'm distracted: >You could have left after a few days. Veering towards victim blaming territory there. Also was the FAQ about progress payments added to the OP site after you commented earlier?

tecleandor 6mo ago

Well, they signed a contract saying they would pay a certain amount in exchange of certain work. They were supposed (and promised) to pay that amount, and when the time came, they didn't. I'd say that's a rip-off and very similar to "I was supposed to receive a TV on exchange for certain work, and what I got in the mail was a brick".